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Superman in the 70s - DC Comics Message Boards
Author Topic:   Superman in the 70s
wbrentleigh
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posted January 17, 2002 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wbrentleigh   Click Here to Email wbrentleigh
quoting India Ink:
"For me Batman and Superman were like my parents."

You know, India Ink, (and I absolutely mean this in the nicest possible way) with your incredible store of knowledge and passion for the Silver/Bronze Age Superman, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that ENB himself wasn't one of your parents....

The posts in this thread are amazing, and I thought *I* liked and had a fair handle on the pre-Crisis Supes.

Keep up the outstanding work! (if you're able to, of course)

wbl

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wbrentleigh
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posted January 17, 2002 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wbrentleigh   Click Here to Email wbrentleigh
"wasn't one of your parents."

uh, er, that should read "was one of your parents".

But I think that would be obvious.

cheers,
wbl

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India Ink
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posted January 17, 2002 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I consider all the men and women who made comics in the sixties and seventies to be my parents.

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India Ink
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posted January 18, 2002 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Superman No. 238, June '71, like so many comics from that time is well worth having. It has this beautiful cover by Infantino and Anderson (sadly, in those days, Infantino was too busy with his publishing duties to actually pencil very many covers--although he seems to have generated a lot of the rough ideas for DC's covers--so this Infanderson masterpiece was a rare treat), it shows Superman on his knees in the snow pleading with the Sandman to help him, and the imperious Sandman (arms folded) refusing.

Inside is another great chapter in the Saga, by O'Neil/Swan/Anderson. And the back-up is one of my favourite Fabulous World of Krypton stories, by Cary Bates and the late great Gray Morrow--telling the story of Kryp and Tonn, the Adam and Eve of Krypton.

And then there's the letter page. In the late seventies, in college taking an English course in archetypal literature, I quoted at length from this letter in my term paper on Superman--

Here's the text of that letter page in its entirety:

METROPOLIS MAILBAG
S-784

Dear Editor:

I am very happy that new and interesting things are happening with Superman. He has passed a turning point in his life, and that is always intriguing.

Superman has always been the most interesting of all the DC characters--so interesting that he has forged a whole new American mythology around himself. I think it is time that National Periodicals be congratulated for making this very definite contribution to the American culture. One sees Superman and his efforts in every phase of American life. Professor Max Lerner, in America as a Civilization, cites Superman as a contemporary folk hero, even as were King Arthur and Robin Hood of another culture, even as Paul Bunyan and the heroes of the old West in our own culture. Superman is in the media--reruns of a television show rake in the residuals twenty years after they were made, and admen use the Superman theme all over newspapers and magazines.

The greatest compliment is imitation. Superman has been satirized and borrowed from for over thirty years. He is a legend, and one every bit as rich as the legends of the past. Superman is replete with the values of his contemporaries, and their weaknesses--humanity that will not be admitted to under an exterior of strength--a social conscience--reverence for human life--power and the daring to explore the unknown, the assertion of omnipotence. This is the legend of Superman. This is the legend whose growth we of our generation are privileged to witness.

Now the legend grows again. The Man of Steel becomes a TV reporter. He loses an old weakness and finds a new one. He wrestles with the problems of law and justice. He struggles with the inner conflict of belonging, of wanting a place where he can live with people like himself. He could not cope with the simply human existence he would find in the city of Kandor. He is strength. He is dynamism. He is the man who has moved planets and draws his strength from the awesome powers of a bright young star. He has lived with strength and must live with his own kind, living forever, traversing dimensional barriers as barriers of air, learning, growing, always groping for what is right and of value for himself and those whom he is charged to protect.

This is Superman. This is the Man of Steel of our legend. In the '50's, when comics were being blamed for juvenile delinquency and street violence and all manner of social ills, I picked up a Superman comic at a candy store in Brooklyn's East New York. From that magazine, that brief encounter, came my imagination, my own social conscience and reverence for human life, my own daring to dream. It is time that I and a generation like me thanked National Periodicals for Superman. He has helped to make us dream.

Elliot S. Maggin, Brandeis University, Waltham, Mass.

(Well, King Arthur inspired Malory, Tennyson, Mark Twain, and T.H. White. Robin Hood inspired Sir Walter Scott. And it seems Superman has inspired Elliot Maggin to write a moving essay. Super-Thanks, Elliot!E.N.B.)

Dear Editor:

What I really love about Denny O'Neil's Superman is that O'Neil has not fallen prey to one of his greatest faults--one shared by many writers who are, like him adept at characterization. When he took over Green Arrow and The Atom, his characterizations were excellent, but they were completely different from their previous ones! Happily, Superman is the same logical-minded intellectual he always was.

This is most notable where Superman is unable to legally save the islanders. Most heroes would either sit there helplessly or launch into a bitter tirade against "the Establishment." But not Superman! Like the reasonable man he is, he simply says, "There's a moral law above some man-made laws," and sets about saving the natives.

O'Neil can write really excellent plots, and this issue's was no exception. The new weakness, now fully defined, was used well. I certainly hope Murphy Anderson will continue to ink Curt Swan's pencils--as long as he does, I'll have no complaint with the art in this magazine.

It's really incredible how E. Nelson Bridwell can go through those hundreds of back issues and come up with a complete history of the final years of Krypton. "Prison - in - the - Sky" did a fine job in explaining the theory behind the criminals - into - space method of imprisonment. But is that a black man on page 5? It's not a bad idea--but since we've never seen any on Krypton before, it would mean that Krypton had a greater race problem than Earth ever did! I wouldn't want to think that of such an advanced civilization, so let's just call it a mistake, hmmm?

Swan did well in inking his own pencils. All in all, the "new Superman" is the best revamping of a character I've ever seen.

Richard H. Morrissey, Farmingham, Mass.

(That was a black man--of a black civilization on Krypton. See the Map of Krypton in the current Giant Superman (#239) for another look at it. Remember--you see blacks in the U.S. because their ancestors were brought here as slaves. That never happened on Krypton. E.N.B.)

Dear Editor:

Isn't it true that the dissolver-beam that appeared in the World of Krypton story in #234 also appeared in Giant Superboy G-71 ("Tha Phantom Superboy")?

Jerry Cole, Grand Rapids, Mich.

(Correct! It was also mentioned in Giant Superman G-78 ("Father's Day on Planet Krypton"). Congratulations! You're the only reader who noted either of these recent reprints in connection with the dissolver.--E.N.B.)

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India Ink
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posted January 18, 2002 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
It should be noted that the two letters from Mass. were published in this lettercol before either young firebrand was working for DC--although Maggin would soon be employed there in a very short while, and Morrissey in a couple of years more.

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bluedevil2002
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posted January 18, 2002 09:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluedevil2002   Click Here to Email bluedevil2002
I don't understand why DC doesn't reprint the entire Sandman saga. They obviously know it's a great story, because they keep reprinting the first issue.

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bluedevil2002
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posted January 18, 2002 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluedevil2002   Click Here to Email bluedevil2002
I know that the Sandman Saga is Superman #233-238, 240-242. Does anyone know how to get those issues fairly inexpensively? I'd really like to read it, but can't shell out 20-30 bucks an issue.

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India Ink
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posted January 18, 2002 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
quote:
Originally posted by wbrentleigh:

You know, India Ink, (and I absolutely mean this in the nicest possible way) with your incredible store of knowledge and passion for the Silver/Bronze Age Superman, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that ENB himself wasn't one of your parents....

wbl


You know what they say about a carpenter and his tools. Well, I only seem to have a lot of knowledge because I've usually dug out the comics in question just before posting. Otherwise I doubt I could keep my facts straight (and even then sometimes I have goofed on this thread). Whereas, from all I've read about my father--er--Mr. Bridwell, I gather that he could pick out the littlest of details from his storehouse of memories, without need for checking the comics themselves. And Superman wasn't even his first love--apparently Bridwell was a devoted fan of Captain Marvel before all other comics characters.

Plus, the late Rich Morrissey, Mark Evanier, and posters on these boards like Osgood Peabody, LinaStrick, Mikishawn, Old Dude, and many many more have shown a vast knowledge that I can't begin to claim.

Anyway, since I'm on a letterpage-quoting jag...

Today I was looking at my copy of Superman 167 (Feb. '64)--that's the issue where "The Team of Luthor and Brainiac !" first appeared, the 27 page epic that was reprinted in Superman 245 (Super-Spec DC-7).

This story is notable for a lot of firsts, and for advancing the mythology further. The first story to reveal Brainiac as an android or his 12th level intelligence. The first story to introduce Ardora--okay she's called Tharla in this story, but she's Ardora in all subsequent Lexor stories, and she'll marry Luthor and have his son. Not to mention revelations about the people who created Brainiac (and the history of Brainiac 5) or further Kandorian trivia.

But on page 8 in the original comic there's an editorial note that instructs us to check the "Metropolis Mailbag" page, where there's this "Special Announcement!"

"Thousands of DC readers have avidly followed the spectacular duels between SUPERMAN and his greatest foe, the nefarious scientist, BRAINIAC." [Lex must have been mad enough to spit when he read that...=>] "Their exciting clashes have taken place deep below the ocean and in distant galaxies. But whether the battleground has been Atlantis or Arcturus, each time BRAINIAC has proved himself an opponent worthy of the Man of Steel's mettle!

"And now let us go behind the scenes and unveil a remarkable conincidence. The fictional character, 'Brainiac,' was created for us by Otto Binder, a famous science fiction writer who is currently the editor of 'Space World,' a magazine for rocket experts. (Otto also created 'Bizarro' and wrote the great Superman novel, 'Krypton Lives On.')

"Shortly after the first 'Brainiac' story appeared in ACTION COMICS, in 1956, we learned that a REAL 'Brainiac' existed...in the form of an ingenious 'Brainiac Computer Kit' invented in 1955 by Edmund C. Berkeley. Mr. Berkeley is a distinguished scientist and a world authority on automation, computers, and robots.

"In deference to his 'Brainiac,' which pre-dates ours, with this issue of SUPERMAN we are changing the characterization of our 'Brainiac' so that the master-villain will henceforth possess a 'computer personality.' We are confident that our readers will approve of this transformation; it should make 'Brainiac' a mightier adversary for the Man of Steel.

"Readers will be interest to learn that they can build their own 'Brainiac' by purchasing one of Mr. Berkeley's computer kits and assembling the parts. Thousands of youngsters, as well as adults, have bought these kits and, by following the simple directions, have been able to construct home-made computers which can solve interesting problems of all kinds. 'Braniac' kits cost less than $20.00 and make an ideal educational hobby. For more information, write for free literature to: Berkeley Enterprises, Inc., 815 Washington Street, Newtonville 60, Mass."

* * *

It's interesting that Berkeley Enterprises owned the "Brainiac computer kit" trademark--which raises questions about DC's trademark ownership of "Brainiac"--I wonder if they ever bought the trademark from Berkeley?

And just by chance on this same letterpage is this letter from a familiar name:

Dear Editor: You've got another winner in "The Sweetheart Superman Forgot." I note that you used a switch by putting the double-L in the middle of SaLLy's name. This story deserves a sequel, but I hope you won't carry it too far. Lori the mermaid was only good for two stories before she became just another supporting character.
E. Nelson Bridwell, Oklahoma City, Okla.

* * *

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India Ink
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posted January 18, 2002 10:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
In answer to bluedevil, I've seen modest prices on 70s books at the Mile High internet store. But last week I ordered a few comics from their store (in a weak moment), and then happened to go to a swap meet and saw one of the same comics I'd ordered for a lot lot lot less. Of course it'll be some time before I get the Mile Highs in the mail, but I imagine their copies will be in better condition than what I saw at the swap meet--however, except for special issues, I'm not f**** too about condition. (I'm trying to decide if I should order 164 through Mile High, and if so should I go for top quality condition--since if I did order it it would be the prized comic in my collection--I might even build a shrine for it?)

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India Ink
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posted January 18, 2002 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
No, I didn't swear. I was trying to say "too f u s s y."

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Aldous
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posted January 18, 2002 11:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by bluedevil2002:
I don't understand why DC doesn't reprint the entire Sandman saga. They obviously know it's a great story, because they keep reprinting the first issue.

I totally agree.

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Aldous
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posted January 19, 2002 04:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:
I consider all the men and women who made comics in the sixties and seventies to be my parents.

I understand where you're coming from.

A couple of days ago I said I would take up the issue of the "sad Superman," and I've thought a lot about this interpretation of Superman and why and how it's different to a "self-pitying Superman."

Is being "sad" the same as feeling sorry for oneself?

India, you have delved into the "sad" aspect quite well enough without me adding my two cents. I was going to say something about not confusing sadness with self-pity - but you don't confuse the two.

The Ultimate Battle is an awesome conclusion to the Sandman Saga. The pathos here is real. Superman finishes on a very heavy note - sad (that word again), with the weight of everything he has been through, and come to realise, on his shoulders.

Superman is very alone at the end.

Yet, don't forget - he started the whole business on such a high note!

Morgan Edge didn't share the joy at Green K on Earth ceasing to exist. "I don't trust anyone who can't be stopped! A wise man once said that 'power corrupts...and absolute power corrupts absolutely!' How do we know Superman will be an exception?"

Despite the new responsibilities in his civilian working life, Superman is pretty upbeat all through this issue. In fact, he seems downright pleased with the way things are turning out. Big changes - but: "I've never felt so confident... knowing that there's absolutely nothing that can harm me! Morgan Edge was wrong! Power isn't corrupting... it's freeing me -- to do unlimited good!"

This was probably my first Superman comic as a very young kid, and its art has always been my favourite single issue of Superman art. Denny O'Neil, however, was also in top form. It's some of his best work, this Saga. Superman genuinely grows and changes through this whole storyline. He starts out feeling "confident" and "unlimited" - but by the end of it all, he feels anything but.

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Aldous
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posted January 19, 2002 04:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Yet, don't forget - he started the whole business on such a high note!

Morgan Edge didn't share the joy at Green K on Earth ceasing to exist. "I don't trust anyone who can't be stopped! A wise man once said that 'power corrupts...and absolute power corrupts absolutely!' How do we know Superman will be an exception?"

Despite the new responsibilities in his civilian working life, Superman is pretty upbeat all through this issue. In fact, he seems downright pleased with the way things are turning out. Big changes - but: "I've never felt so confident... knowing that there's absolutely nothing that can harm me! Morgan Edge was wrong! Power isn't corrupting... it's freeing me -- to do unlimited good!"

This was probably my first Superman comic as a very young kid, and its art has always been my favourite single issue of Superman art.


Here I'm talking about No 233, "Superman Breaks Loose". (Forgot to say...)

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bluedevil2002
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posted January 19, 2002 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluedevil2002   Click Here to Email bluedevil2002
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:
In answer to bluedevil, I've seen modest prices on 70s books at the Mile High internet store.

I checked, and most were in the $10-30 range, with one FN issue at $5.

What would be the best way to petition DC for a TPB of the Sandman arc?

------------------
Batman Online | The Shadow's Internet Sanctum! | DC/Marvel: The Merging | World's Finest

Founding member of A.P.E.S. - Association for Primate Enhancement and Servitude

"There are times we sleepwalk though our lives, oblivious to the signs around us, until we suddenly wake up and realize that we're not walking at all. We're sliding. Down a greased hill. Towards a boiling pit of . . . life."

-Clark Kent, Action Comics #780

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India Ink
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posted January 19, 2002 05:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I'm at a loss to figure out what would get DC to publish the collected Sandman Saga run--if anyone can think of a campaign that would work I'm ready to hear about it and support it.

Regarding "Sad" Superman--I think it would be overmuch for me to claim that he NEVER was self-pitying, but on balance, in most of the instances I can think of, his sadness comes from the external world rather than internal angst.

He's sad for the world, for humanity, for the Kandorians and Metropolitans who turn on him whenever the mood suits them. Superman's perspective is much broader--he sees beyond the petty self-interests of human societies to the greater moral context--and it makes him sad to see the failure of these societies to get beyond their self-imposed borders and achieve harmony with the universe.

The explosion of Krypton is the textbook example. Obviously Superman can't help but pity himself for the loss of such parents and such a good society. But Superman had a happy outcome--he got to Smallville and the Kents--a microcosm of the perfect society (except when the Smallvillains would turn on Superboy and drive him out of town)--whereas most of Krypton did not survive. The Kryptonians could have survived if they had been broader in their outlook, not limited by petty politics. Jor-El gave his life in the pursuit of higher moral principles, and Superman is guided by that sacrifice of self for the Good.

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bluedevil2002
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posted January 19, 2002 08:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluedevil2002   Click Here to Email bluedevil2002
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:
I'm at a loss to figure out what would get DC to publish the collected Sandman Saga run--if anyone can think of a campaign that would work I'm ready to hear about it and support it.

The only thing I can think of is to try to get a lot of people to mail or e-mail the Superman editors. Maybe we could try to get Jeph's attention, since he's on the inside, and he could talk with someone.

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The Progenitor
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posted January 19, 2002 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
its a classic among fans, but not among dc big wigs, and it would leave the new readers at a loss especially when they introduced a current Sand Superman about 7 years ago
no need to bring the past back into it i guess

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
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Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES

http://www.racerxband.com/main.html

THE SUPERHEROES OF ROCK AND ROLL

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India Ink
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posted January 20, 2002 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
That seemed to be the reasoning in the early days of the re-boot. They wanted to "force" fans into seeing only ONE Superman, their Superman, and no other alternative. Only recently have they relaxed on this issue--by releasing all kinds of tradepaperback collections--often in relation to a present event (such as with the Bizarro Tales TPB).

But maybe the distinction between that distant past and the present is obvious. They think that the old quaint Weisinger tales don't challenge the present version. But if they published all those good Sandman Saga stories--written by someone who is highly regarded in the present day--that might just be too close to the current version (and yet daringly different).

It's something to think about. Does DC have so little faith in their present Superman that they're too SCARED to publish the O'Neil/Swan/Anderson tales?

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bluedevil2002
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posted January 20, 2002 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluedevil2002   Click Here to Email bluedevil2002
Why can't they just slap an Elseworlds logo on the cover of the TPB, though?

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KEV-EL
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posted January 20, 2002 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KEV-EL   Click Here to Email KEV-EL
Its definitely a WAY past due TPB when you consider how many real “non-stories” that have made it into that format...

The biggest shame of the Sandman saga to me is this;

Had they stuck with it, had they actually stayed with a de-powered Superman maybe, just maybe, the reboot wouldn't have been necessary or at least not as far reaching...

But...

Pick up issue # 243 The Starry-Eyed Siren of Space!

On the first page you will find the Man of Steel "trillions of miles out in deep space"... Surviving a supernova explosion!.

Oh well.

You guys have been brilliant here. I wish I had joined in more often with the discussions. I have all these books (Superman & Action) going back to the early 1950's. So its really great to know others appreciate them...

As for back issues...

Try E-bay... You'll be surprised good deals can be found... Be wary, but I think they are out there to be had...

If anyone want’s to start some kind of petition on a Sandman saga TPB pass it my way, I’ll be happy to add my John Hancock...

This thread alone is proof enough that folks are interested in those stories!!!

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With his will, or against his will, a man will reveal himself with every word ---
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I have (more than likely) been dispatched by Justin Peeler ®

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India Ink
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posted January 20, 2002 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
[QUOTE]Originally posted by India Ink:

Superman

3) #243 (Oct. '71) "The Starry-Eyed Siren of Space," story: Cary Bates, 18 pages.
--after nine issues of earth-bound story-telling we get a completely different kind of story, set in outer-space. Mainly a Star Trek tale, this story is pretty standard science fiction stuff (two highly advanced energy beings in containment cells want to know what it's like to have real bodies), but what I like about it are all the wierd hanging unresolved details. For some reason at the start of the story, unwittingly, Superman has flown back in time (as he realizes at the story's end), but just why this was important is never made clear (it's for us to imagine). There's mention of a space-legend about starry-eyed sirens (another promising story possibility that remains unresolved). And the story finishes with some other guy who also looks like Superman and has his powers (never resolved) wandering around space in the distant past. I also like the skeletal monster that comes to life.

[QUOTE]

The Starry-Eyed Siren is one of my favourite Swanderson tales. I'm not sure why it casts such a spell. Msybe it's all the unresolved oddities. Why did Bates send Superman back in time for this adventure? What happened to the "clone" Superman and his Starry-Eyed mate?

It's clear (from the editor's not at the end), that there was more story Bates and Schwartz had in mind (I always thought this story tied in with the "Adam and Eve" story from 238, also by Bates). We'll never know what that sequel might have been.

Starry-Eyed is also interesting because it's the first story in Superman immediately after the Saga. And it's opposite to the Saga. Where Superman is bound to the Earth in the Saga, here he is in outer-space. Where Superman's concerns are focused on the present day (early seventies) urban landscape in the Saga (O'Neil even moves the action to New York proper, as if to accentuate the gritty reality of Superman's battle), here, in Starry Eyed, Bates has Superman in a totally distant time period far removed from mundane concerns.

The contrast was startling.

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India Ink
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posted January 20, 2002 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
At least twice that I recall, Rich Morrissey posted on different threads about the contrast between Byrne's version of Superman's encounter with the Forever People (I don't have the details about which comic this occurred in at hand) versus Jack Kirby's original version of the same story ("The Forever People! In Search of a Dream!" by Jack Kirby with Vince Colletta--Superman illoed by Al Plastino--Forever People no. 1, 1970, 24 pages).

Mr. Morrissey pointed out that in the first story, by Kirby, Superman doesn't go to SuperTown. SuperTown beckons to Superman as a place where he might be among his own kind--he says, "I need to know more! I've got to see SuperTown--" The Boom Tube opens up and Superman flies off toward SuperTown, but then "Superman feels the sting of apprehension" and he questions whether he can leave Earth at this critical moment--"Is Earth the battleground for some strange Super-War?" And the Man of Steel decides he "can't go on--" turns back--"and as the Boom Tube fades, Superman catches a glimpse of distant, gleaming towers...then like a dream, they too fade, and are gone!"

Whereas, Byrne's Superman has no moral problem with going on to SuperTown--thus affording Byrne the chance to show his Man of Tomorrow in Kirby's Fourth World. But for Rich this was an important distinction. Kirby, in Morrissey's opinion, has greater insight into the drama. It's far more compelling that Superman sacrifices his own curiosity and desire to be among his own kind, for the greater good of Earth! This is the noble (and sad) Superman, as Kirby shows him sitting slumped upon a rock: "Perhaps, someday, I'll try again...but the time is not now--not yet--"

Contrast this with "Superman's Greatest Feats" reprinted in Superman 252's Super-Spec (1972) or "The Amazing Story of Superman-Red and Superman-Blue" reprint in the 1973 Super Spec (DC-18). In both of these tales, Superman isn't sacrificing himself for the world, but he is intervening in the fate of the world.

In "Feats," he saves Atlantis from sinking, rescues Christians from being thrown to the lions in Rome, saves Nathan Hale, saves Lincoln, stops the defeat of General Custer's forces at Little Big Horn, and sends an armada of spaceships toward Krypton allowing Jor-El, Lara, Zor-El, Lyla Lerrol, and even baby Kal-El, among a legion of other Kryptonians, to escape the doomed planet. Superman's paternal concern for certain Earthlings and certain Kryptonians seems to know no bounds. It does turn out to be an alternate universe in the end, but the interesting thing is that Superman never questions his moral right to change history. He makes the presumption that the martyrdom of Christians should be stopped (but maybe that martyrdom was part of God's plan?), that it's better for General Custer to win than Sitting Bull (Superman doesn't travel to the 15th century Americas and inject native people with small pox vaccine, which could have saved millions of innocent people from a horrible death; nor does he go to Nazi Germany and save millions of Jews).

In "Red..Blue," Superman has a list of tasks that he feels he ought to accomplish in his lifetime:
1. Restore Kandor to normal size
2. Find antidote to Green Kryptonite
3. Wipe out Crime and Evil
4. Guard Against______

When Red and Blue provide the enlarged Kryptonians with a new Krypton, the Supermen bring all the chunks of Kryptonite in the cosmos together to form the new planet (thus eliminating Kryptonite--Superman does a similar sort of thing, for the energy beings inhabiting Rao, when he forms a new Krypton out of Kryptonite, in 255's "Sun of Superman" by Bates, taking care of most of the Kryptonite that still remained in space, while, in 233, the Kryptonite on Earth had been changed to iron).

The Supermen have no reservations about putting satellites in orbit around the Earth that "erase all thoughts of evil from the minds of the world's criminals!" One of my favorite scenes in this story is the two-panels of Kruschev and Castro, respectively destroying the missiles ("notify President Kennedy we agree to disarmament with full inspection") and releasing all the prisoners. But Red and Blue are never caught puzzling over the philosophical intricacies of their plan. Meanwhile a now good Luthor develops a serum to cure every known disease!

All of which leads us to "Must There Be A Superman?" Published in 1972, this story from 247 addresses the issue of Superman as saviour of Earth. We've seen him sacrifice himself for Earth, and we've seen him act as a god deciding Earth's fate, but here Kal-El must now consider his actions. Where O'Neil artificially limited Superman by reducing his power level, Maggin (through the Guardians) limits Superman's interventions into the fates of people and planets by giving him a philosophical problem. Maggin manages to turn Superman's own moral imperative around--so that now for the good of Earth (at the risk of "holding back social growth") Superman should choose wisely when to act and when to let destiny decide.

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Aldous
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posted January 21, 2002 12:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
3) #243 (Oct. '71) "The Starry-Eyed Siren of Space," story: Cary Bates, 18 pages.
--after nine issues of earth-bound story-telling we get a completely different kind of story, set in outer-space. Mainly a Star Trek tale, this story is pretty standard science fiction stuff (two highly advanced energy beings in containment cells want to know what it's like to have real bodies), but what I like about it are all the wierd hanging unresolved details. For some reason at the start of the story, unwittingly, Superman has flown back in time (as he realizes at the story's end), but just why this was important is never made clear (it's for us to imagine). There's mention of a space-legend about starry-eyed sirens (another promising story possibility that remains unresolved). And the story finishes with some other guy who also looks like Superman and has his powers (never resolved) wandering around space in the distant past. I also like the skeletal monster that comes to life.


The Starry-Eyed Siren is one of my favourite Swanderson tales. I'm not sure why it casts such a spell. Msybe it's all the unresolved oddities. Why did Bates send Superman back in time for this adventure? What happened to the "clone" Superman and his Starry-Eyed mate?

It's clear (from the editor's not at the end), that there was more story Bates and Schwartz had in mind (I always thought this story tied in with the "Adam and Eve" story from 238, also by Bates). We'll never know what that sequel might have been.

Starry-Eyed is also interesting because it's the first story in Superman immediately after the Saga. And it's opposite to the Saga. Where Superman is bound to the Earth in the Saga, here he is in outer-space. Where Superman's concerns are focused on the present day (early seventies) urban landscape in the Saga (O'Neil even moves the action to New York proper, as if to accentuate the gritty reality of Superman's battle), here, in Starry Eyed, Bates has Superman in a totally distant time period far removed from mundane concerns.

The contrast was startling. - India Ink


Kev-El and India Ink... great posts. India, I am about to rip into one of your "favourite Swanderson tales", so cover your eyes or go make a cup of coffee, or something... (Seriously.)

This story, The Starry-Eyed Siren of Space, is crap. I don't like it. It's an example of Cary Bates at his worst. (Note: there are many dozens of Cary Bates stories I really like.) This story's version of Superman is a typical Bates version... so far over the top as to be ridiculous, a continuity disaster both in terms of the title (coming right off Sandman Saga as Kev says), and a continuity disaster within the confines of the story itself.

It's a limp rip-off of the Classic Trek episode Return to Tomorrow. This theme is nothing earth-shatteringly original in SF (intellects as pure energy desiring physical form), and it undoubtedly pre-dates Shatner-Nimoy Star Trek, but Cary has done a terrible version of it.

First panel, page 1, Superman thinks, "It was good helping out my alien friends in this star system." The sort of line Cary Bates used far too often. No thought put into it. If you think about it, it's a stupid, throwaway line that immediately makes me roll my eyes. Like a lot of Bates' writing, it lacks any substance.

Superman is portrayed in this story as being VERY CERTAIN that he would GLADLY and IMMEDIATELY give up his role as Superman and become Clark Kent full-time if the "trouble-makers" among the human race would just stop (er.....) making trouble. He makes it clear he would give up his powers GLADLY (in effect, he would like to cease being himself?????) if only Earth people would behave and not cause problems for him to fix! The male super-being of the story gives Superman some chemicals that will eradicate four blights from Earth: disease, pollution, crime, and starvation. For crying out loud, Cary Bates... this is just utter rubbish. It is terribly inappropriate writing for Superman. It belongs in Grimm Fairy Tales. (Think about it.) Superman thinks: "...Since Superman will be no longer needed, I can become Clark Kent -- permanently! Finally marry Lois Lane ... raise a family!"

What incredible nonsense. Superman doesn't "become" Clark Kent. He IS Clark Kent. Clark Kent is a super-being. (Hello!) Where is this insatiable desire to remain in his Clark Kent role and marry Lois in the continuity of Superman? It's rubbish, and Cary Bates must take responsibility for a lot of the DC Comics continuity nightmares and disasters through the history of Superman. The writing in this story is a good example of his selfish carelessness.

Superman: "Earth's great hope ...and mine... for a normal life... gone!" (The super-chemicals become ruined.) Wake up -- Superman is not Ditko's Peter Parker. What NORMAL LIFE??!! (It's just awful, careless writing within Superman's continuity.)

Please note (for everyone who doesn't know what the heck I'm talking about): this character was born Kal-El of Krypton. He was born Superman. From a tiny baby he has been Clark Kent. This character (Bates take note) wasn't created when a "normal man" with a "normal life" was bitten by a radioactive Kryptonian.

In part of the story, the super-being who duplicates Superman can't figure out what to do because he is not the REAL Superman.....

...Yet, moments later he does just what the REAL Superman would do because (Superman thinks) "--just as I was going to do! It's as if he read my mind! Well... no wonder -- [he] does "have" my mind."

The story is so inconsistent as to be laughable.

The "unresolved oddities" commented on by India are just the things that annoy me about a lot of the past DC writers and editors who frequently threw caution and continuity and logic to the wind... they just didn't care.

The "unresolved" and completely arbitrary introductions (like the "legend") are NOT strengths of a good story. They show up a lazy and weak piece of writing.

Even the Swanderson work seems below par -- possibly because of a lack of background... just repeating scenes of a few sketched rocks (ie. barren landscape).

All-in-all, a lazy, weak effort. And a very poor Superman story. Coming right off "Sandman", this is little more than a joke.

Aldous

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KEV-EL
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posted January 21, 2002 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KEV-EL   Click Here to Email KEV-EL
Aldous...

Awesome post...

The best thing that could be said about the "Starry Eyed Siren" was the beauty and simplicity of the Neil Adams cover... I though for sure they would have included one of his pin-ups in the Adventures 600 anniversary issue...

God, I miss that guy...

The rest of that story was an almost direct rip-off of the "Gamesters of Triskelion" episode of Star Trek, right down to the disembodied brains in the glass cubicles...

Ludicrous coming on the heels of what was possibly the best Superman story of its era...

Of course there is major redemption in Superman 247 in the classic "Must There Be A Superman"...

Unfortunately, once again there was a massive failure of follow up on this truly brilliant story... I distinctly remember buying that issue (yes I still have it, and yes, it set me back a whopping 25 cents ) and anxiously awaiting for the ramifications in Superman 248...

or 249 or 250... But alas...

Just like the Sandman saga, there was no closure...

But there was Terra Man and I'm not ashamed to admit I really liked those stories!!!

I have all my well read originals of all those books too and this thread has me going back and re-reading many of them...

Those were certainly some grand days in the Life of Superman...

------------------
With his will, or against his will, a man will reveal himself with every word ---
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I have (more than likely) been dispatched by Justin Peeler ®

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Aldous
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posted January 21, 2002 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Cary Bates may have been drunk or half-asleep when he wrote Starry-Eyed Siren because each re-reading shows up more glaring inconsistencies...

Superman desires the female super-being in her physical form which makes the male super-being (a disembodied intellect) jealous, an emotion he experiences for the "first time." The jealous super-being then manifests himself in physical form as a duplicate of Superman, including the latter's super powers, for the express purpose of killing Superman to punish him for "trying to run off with Rija [the female]."

He does his best to murder Superman in a jealous rage, THEN (this is unbelievable), a short time later, the same jealous would-be murderer conjures up "out of thin air" a potion that will eliminate all crime from Earth!

BUT ALSO! -- despite the super-beings ability to instantly wipe out all crime and disease, etc., the male super-being originally asks for Superman's help because he is afraid his mate "could be stricken with disease or injury" while in physical form!!

(mutter, mutter...)

quote:
But there was Terra Man and I'm not ashamed to admit I really liked those stories!!! -- Kev

Hey, one of my favourite Superman tales is a Terra Man story by Cary Bates. (I haven't inspected it for inconsistencies.)

To India Ink ....

When you mentioned the Siren story, I recalled I didn't like the story, so I re-read it, and found it worse than I remembered. (This is only one person's opinion.) I wanted to write something about why I didn't like it. Then I had to decide whether or not to actually do so - because you had said it was a favourite of yours. I ran the risk of hurting your feelings.

I wrote what I thought. I figured you might want to hear an honest opinion, even one diametrically opposed to your own.

?

Aldous

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