superman.nuMary Immaculate of Lourdes NewtonHolliston School Committeefacebook    
  •   forum   •   COUNTDOWN TO MIRACLE MONDAY: "IT'S REAL!" •   fortress   •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 

Superman in the 70s - DC Comics Message Boards
Author Topic:   Superman in the 70s
India Ink
Member
posted May 30, 2002 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Goes to show you that Murray Boltinoff was a better editor than most of us usually realize--he was the editor who put together Swan and Anderson in Action. He also put Dave Cockrum on the Legion in Superboy (and Mike Grell).

Although artistic publisher/editorial director/art director, Carmine Infantino, may have had something to do with these choices.

IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted May 30, 2002 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
I take it "Billy Fawcett" is a tribute to the Big Red Cheese's original publisher?

Too bad DC (understandably) sued the Captain. He was a superb character.

You said the other day how the original version (or vision) of a character quickly evolves into something of its own, despite having familiar or unoriginal elements.

Boy, Captain Marvel did that, in spades! In fact, he's probably the best example of this evolution into something original.

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted May 30, 2002 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Or it might have been "William Fawcett"--the name of the little boy, I mean--since there were enough Billies around at the time. Billy Anders seemed to be another sort of attempt at bringing in the Capt. Marvel motif. For a few stories Billy Anders and Supes were linked (I think I may have mentioned this earlier on this thread) and Superman had to think of Billy's pet lynx to get his super-powers from Billy.

And yes William Fawcett was named for the original Captain Billy Fawcett who was the founder of the company (Captain Billy's Whiz Bang was a joke-book publication in the early part of the 20th Century--mentioned in "The Music Man").

And yes the World's Mightiest Mortal was truly an ORIGINAL Captain Marvel, even if Superman may have given the publishers the idea. There were ideas in the Capt. Marvel story that could only work in that world.

Although, I think Weisinger borrowed from that world in reinventing the Superman world. But then again, the writers went in a totally new direction with those ideas. A writer like Otto Binder, who had written so much of the Marvel Family, didn't just repeat himself, but showed an alternate path for Supergirl and the others which was different again from Mary Marvel and the rest of her family.

When people talk about a superhero who juggled planets, that more aptly describes some of Capt. Marvel's stories and not Superman's.

IP: Logged

bizarromark
Member
posted May 30, 2002 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bizarromark   Click Here to Email bizarromark
Weird. Just too, too weird.

You guys brought up ZHA-VAM, and I just wrote about the big bruiser over on another thread this morning!

I LOVED THAT GUY!

The context I was writing about him was as a suggestion for an old Superman villain to resurrect in the modern continuity (heck, they've done it for just about every other Silver Age character!!!).

Here's what I wrote (with some minor edits):

"ZHA-VAM: Before DC purchased the rights to publish Captain Marvel, they dreamed up some Captain Marvel "stand ins" to satisfy the eternal need of fans to see Superman and Cap beat on each other. One, named "Captain Thunder" (created by Elliot Maggin) was VERY close to the actual Captain Marvel in origin and costume and pre-dated the REAL Cap's arrival at DC by only about a year or so.
The other one, ZHA-VAM was a big, bellicose red-bearded guy, sort of in the mold of the Biblical Goliath: huge, brash, boastful and confident in his power to crush Superman. He, like Cap, had the combined powers of the ancient Greek and Roman gods and had a matching Zeus-like fury to go with them. Perhaps an updated ZHA-VAM could be an amalgamation of powers of MANY different pantheons, not just the Greek and Roman gods. In a take-off from the current storyline running in "Superman: Man of Steel", perhaps the evil gods of the different world religions could create a single champion to fight Superman....with an assist from Captain Marvel himself (of course)! In today's ecumenical "all religions are the same" atmosphere, this might be a fun way of capitalizing on this sort of philosophical mishmash and create a character that represents the "all faiths are one" paradigm....who can also open up a major can of whup-ass."

Just for the record, I also suggested the Quarrm Sand creature, Galactic Golem and Kryptonite Man. Is it just me, or were the villains of that era, while certainly not as complex as today's villains, just a hell of a lot more interesting?

Back to ZHA-VAM, I, too, need to find the middle chapter of his three part story in ACTION. With all of this talk about ZHA-VAM (I love writing his name in all-caps), the hunt is on for nabbing this issue.

Mark Engblom

------------------
Mark Engblom
_____________


"Supergirl! It's good to see you! I've been in a mental daze, but now I remember everything!"

Comet the Superhorse, from Action Comics #300, May 1963

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted May 31, 2002 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
My old copies of the ZHA-VAM story had lost a lot of pages and their covers over the years, and I never had been able to find the third and final part which explains who he really is. But over the last few months, at swap-meets, I was able to find fairly good copies of all three issues of Action, so I now have the full story--a great treat.

The story of Willie Fawcett, "Make Way for Captain Thunder" (Maggin/Swan/Oksner, Superman 276, June '74) is reprinted in the tradepaperback Superman in the Seventies. Willie gets his powers by rubbing his special lightning belt buckle and saying "THUNDER"--which stands for

Tornado--Power
Hare--Speed
Uncas--Bravery
Nature--Wisdom
Diamond--Toughness
Eagle--Flight
Ram--Tenacity

[Uncas was a great chief of the Mohegan people]. SHA-BOOM! Willie becomes Captain Thunder. Merokee is the Mohegan medicine man who Willie encounters inside a secret stone chamber in the hillside, near where the orphan was away on a camping trip.

In a battle with the Monster League of Evil (who look like Frankenstein's Monster, The Werewolf, Dracula, and The Mummy) "across 1953 dimensions of time-and-space" Captain Thunder ends up on Superman's Earth--presumably Capt. Thunder came from one of the other multiple Earths.

The original comic had a cover by Nick Cardy which showed the two mightiest men flying at each other in battle.

IP: Logged

bizarromark
Member
posted May 31, 2002 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bizarromark   Click Here to Email bizarromark
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:


The original comic had a cover by Nick Cardy which showed the two mightiest men flying at each other in battle.


One of the prizes of my entire Superman collection....especially now that Nick Cardy has signed the cover! It's one of my all-time favorite Cardy covers and the ultimate "clash of the titans" style of cover, a concept the eternal 10-year old boy inside of me will never tire of seeing (similarly, I love ALL covers with big groups of heroes on one side and villains on the other side careening toward each other).

This was one of the very first comic books that I had ever ordered through the mail. I had remembered seeing it in an advertisement in another DC comic book and was very excited about getting it. Of course, back then, you couldn't just jump onto eBay and nab it with relative ease. Back then...it was a HUNT! So, I hunted and hunted and finally found a place that a copy for sale.

When I got the book, I remember feeling a little disappointed that it wasn't Captain Marvel fighting Superman, as I assumed it would be. The tiny reproduction of the cover from the ad made it seem as if it was the real Captain Marvel, since the sunburst insignia on Cap. Thunder's chest was not very clear.

However, even at that time, I understood enough about the legal wrangling between DC and Fawcett to understand why this had to be done. I actually thought it was a clever story, since it was one of the first times I was able to witness something BEING and NON BEING something at the same time. Captain Thunders WAS and WAS NOT Captain Marvel and I thought that was pretty cool (and it hooked me even more on the whole alternate reality schtick than I already was...and still am).

My favorite moment was when Superman had Cap subdued in a super-hold and Cap's wisdom eventually "kicked in"....after which Cap reassured Superman he was now back in control of himself and did not wish to continue fighting. It just seemed like such an amazingly cool...and adult....thing to happen. Two seasoned, mature champions using brains, restraint, maturity and mutual admiration was a powerful image to a growing kid just figuring things out.

Speaking of Captain Thunder, wouldn't it be a blast (with DC's tentative use of Hypertime) for him to meet the real Captain Marvel? Perhaps the wizard Shazam and the old Indian shaman have a connection we've never heard about before. Time and space is a little trickier when it comes to the level these guys walk around on.

Who knows? It could be cool.

------------------
Mark Engblom
_____________


"Supergirl! It's good to see you! I've been in a mental daze, but now I remember everything!"

Comet the Superhorse, from Action Comics #300, May 1963

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted May 31, 2002 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I think you can get just about anywhere from the Rock of Eternity (a point that Ordway reiterated in his Shazam! run--and I think Thunder may have showed up there in one panel).

My copy of 276 is distinguished by a slight bit of schmutz going down the centre of the cover, being as I had just started subscribing to a bunch of DC titles at the time and these all arrived folded in a brown wrapper.

-----

On a somewhat related note, I've struggled my way through transcribing Guy H. Lillian III's interview with Bates and Maggin in AWODDCC, which I mentioned way back on July 30 of last year on this thread (page 4)--it's on my "Backdoor to the 70s" topic over on the Other Superman Topics forum...
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/files/Forum89/HTML/001224-2.html

I really coulda used an edit function on that one!

IP: Logged

Continental Op
Member
posted June 01, 2002 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Continental Op
Just wanted to let you guys know how much I'm enjoying your efforts on this board. I am only 28 years of age, but I find it kind of refreshing to see all these great tales of the 60s and 70s and 80s being revisited in detail. Though I know the pre-1980 comics only through back issues (I was lucky enough to snap up tons of classic Silver and Bronze Age stuff back when you could get all but the rarest and most in-demand ones for three bucks and under!), that era sort of rings truer for me than any other... and not just where Superman is concerned. Some day when I find the time, I'd love to type up some in-depth reviews of some of my favorites for you guys. I can only hope they would be half as fun as yours.


By the way, RE: India Ink's aside in his "Krypton City / Wizard City" review... there definitely is a real "Mort Todd", and it is an alias, but he was NOT the great E. Nelson Bridwell. I don't think ENB ever bothered to use any aliases. It's understandable because I don't think "Todd" (his real name, or another alias was, I believe, "Michael Delle Femine") ever did any other work for DC. He was mostly a cartoonist and editor and was all over the place. He had a macabre, Charles Addams / Gahan Wilson-esque sense of humor ("Mort" and "Tod" are the Latin and German words for "Death"). He first turned up in some stories for Fantagraphics anthology books back in the mid-1980s, as I recall. Later he became editor of CRACKED magazine for a few years and more notably started up a short-lived horror/ humor black and white magazine called MONSTERS ATTACK. I remember seeing those on the stands as a kid but never buying any, and I'd love to be able to find copies now... he managed to get contributions from comics legends like Steve Ditko, Gray Morrow, Gene Colan, John Severin and Alex Toth. In the mid-1990s he was an editor at Marvel for awhile and put together some reprints of their old horror comics. The last I remember seeing anything from him was in the letter column of COMIC BOOK ARTIST magazine a while back.

Oh, and for those seeking a refresher about the "Captain Thunder" story (which I've never been able to get my grubby little hands on), it's covered in depth at this site:

members.tripod.com/originalvigilante/captainthunder.htm

IP: Logged

bizarromark
Member
posted June 01, 2002 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bizarromark   Click Here to Email bizarromark
quote:
Originally posted by Continental Op:

Though I know the pre-1980 comics only through back issues (I was lucky enough to snap up tons of classic Silver and Bronze Age stuff back when you could get all but the rarest and most in-demand ones for three bucks and under!), that era sort of rings truer for me than any other... and not just where Superman is concerned.


Continental Op:

Welcome to the discussion! While I've been on the Superman message boards for about 2 years (and back after an extended break), I'm a newcomer to this thread.

It's wonderful to talk with people about this great era of Superman stories (Silver and Bronze age), and it's fun to run across others who "get it" when it comes to these stories. I'm not putting down people who don't like it, just happy to find people who pick up the same vibe I do from these classics.

I, too, was also lucky enough to be hunting back issues at a time when they were very affordable. However, that was back when you really DID have to hunt them down...and I loved doing it. eBay has made it much easier, especially when you're trying to fill in those annoying little gaps. In fact, eBay helped me finish off my long time quest to complete my FULL RUN of the "Superman" title from issue #100 (1955) all the way to the present. I don't think I could have done it without eBay and the incredible variety it presents.

Still...I'm miss haunting all of those bookstores, old fashioned drug stores (with the pleasant odor of pipe tobacco heavy in the air) and back issue bins.

I'll start combing through my comics to look for stuff to discuss.

Until then, something that just popped into my head:

Regarding the Superman and Flash race presented in Superman #199: Do you guys think this was the first major contest between two big-time superheroes? Up until then, it seemed as if heroes never pitted their abilities against each other...especially of their own volition (not being mind controlled or manipulated in any way). This has always been such a HUGE story, so I've been thinking about what makes it such a landmark story.

True, there WAS a foot race between the Golden Age Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Flash back in the pages of "Comics Cavalcade". This race was revisited in the All-Star Squadron "pilot episode" in Justice League #193 (1981), but the race just didn't seem to be that big of a deal...nothing approaching the power of the Superman / Flash race (remember that COVER? Wow! I defy any 10 year old not to faint with excitement after seeing it!)

Any other examples of superheroes competing against each other before this famous race?

------------------
Mark Engblom
_____________


"Oh, no! NO! >gasp!< I-I've accidentally BLOWN UP THE EARTH!"

Superman from "The Orphans of Space, Superman #144, April 1961

Remember: BUY THE FLASH! IT'S GOOD!

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted June 01, 2002 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Continental Op, thanks for the info on "Mort Todd." I recognized the deathly connotation of the name, but I couldn't think why anyone would use this morbid name. And wonder why Mort Todd would even think of writing about Wizard City given it had been dead for 30 years.

IP: Logged

Continental Op
Member
posted June 02, 2002 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Continental Op
True, the original Wizard City story was pretty far in the past even then, India... but I suspect that, like you did, "Todd" had come across the REPRINT as a kid and been intrigued by the idea of it as a "seed" for further stories. Maybe he had even imagined his own sequel when he first read it (as young readers often do...I know I often tried dreaming up my own "new" superhero stories as a kid even though I knew they wouldn't ever be commited to print)and finally got the chance when Julius Schwartz began accepting lots of shorter "one-shot" tales for the Superman books around that time.

As I remember, back around 1984-1986 was a time when DC knew that the Superman mythos was going to undergo a complete overhaul after CRISIS finished, but they were still casting around for the writers to supply it, and John Byrne hadn't been officially signed up yet, let alone finalized any details of what might stay and what might go. Since none of the stories then being published would "matter" soon anyway (to their way of thinking, I suppose)it was decided to discontinue the ongoing subplots and the continued stories, essentially allowing the Superman mythos only to "mark time" while Julie ran down the clock on his editorship. The lost opportunities there have been mentioned in the "Superman in the 80s" thread, of course. But the decision to move back to shorter, standalone stories (especially in ACTION COMICS, which usually had two or even three stories per issue at this time)had another effect. It also enabled a number of writers with a fondness for the Silver Age era (both the Weisinger era AND the slightly earlier reprints from those Annuals and Giants) to have one last shot at telling stories harking back to the style they remembered from their childhood...like "Wizard City". Had the decision not been made to scrap Superman's history soon, it seems unlikely DC would have given them the chance to write in such a "throwback" style, or even to write Superman at all.

Sure, Alan Moore wrote a few Superman tales around this time, and Keith Giffen's Ambush Bug stories probably would have made Mort Weisinger hit the roof. Bates and Maggin were pretty much the same over in SUPERMAN. But this was the exception at the time, at least for the pages of ACTION. Longtime fan Mark Waid got his crack at breaking into DC with his only stories of the pre-Crisis Supes. But more likely, the plots and dialogue were reminiscent of the Superman tales from the late 1940s to mid-1950s, even pre-Weisinger era. Alien invasions were essentially harmless, and thwarted within a few pages. Bridwell and Rozakis, though their style didn't change much from their Bronze Age work, brought back reminders of the goofier, gentler 1950s, like Professor Potter and the less murderous Toyman. Writer Craig Boldman apparently became a favorite of Schwartz's at the time, and he seemed heavily influenced by the late 40s to mid-50s Supes. Boldman's scripts are basically comedies... in fact, Superman sometimes seemed to be living out the screwball comedies of the 1940s and 1950s film world, as played by Cary Grant in a cape. One story featured a charity contest where people on the street had to guess a feat that Superman couldn't do and, for a few pages, he did things like hiccup while standing on his head (and using his powers secretly to thwart pickpockets in the crowd, of course). Another had an ordinary hot dog vendor daydreaming the wacky ways he would use Superman's powers. Yet another had J. Wilbur Wolfingham, the W.C. Fields-esque con artist of the 1940s era, return, and sell the planet Earth to an alien spaceman with a Buck Rogers-ish outfit and crew-cut hairstyle. The word for Boldman's stories is "zany". I think the influence of the pre-Weisinger era Superman (and for that matter, the Fawcett Captain Marvel stories) is plainly seen.

Not that I'm arguing these stories are classics or anything. At a time when CAMELOT 3000, the Wolfman / Perez NEW TEEN TITANS, Frank Miller's RONIN and the like were what DC was pushing, they were probably sales suicide, even on the newsstands where kids were still buying most of the comics. I'm just pointing out that I think the "Wizard City" story was part of a brief, and intentional, trend in the Superman line at the time. Some of those stories are almost painful to read, and some are a lot of fun, but I think they were definitely part of a conscious decision to let some new writers have one last crack at revisiting their childhood memories of Superman while they still had time.

By the way, since it's a sure bet anyone contributing to this thread remembers Curt Swan when they think Superman... I thought I'd point out a couple of things I recently came across. One is a nice tribute to Swan at:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/talentpo/tp14.html

And another is an upcoming book that I know I'm going to be watching out for:

CURT SWAN: A Life in Comics
-Foreword by Mort Walker.
The elegant comic book art of Curt Swan defined the look of Superman for over 30 years. His amazing skills of storytelling,
draftsmanship and design brought a realism and sense of wonder to The Man of Steel's adventures, making them the best-selling comic books of their day.
Filled with iconic and previously unseen pop art, this fascinating biography traces the artist's career from the beginning on features like GANGBUSTERS to his rise as the top Superman artist. Engaging one-on-one interviews with Swan family members as well as comics legend associates like Joe Kubert, Julius Schwartz, Carmine Infantino, Alan Moore, Murphy Anderson, Dan Jurgens and dozens more paint a portrait of the man as elegant as the artist's own work.
Includes never-before-published Superman art and sketches.
Vanguard. [Expected: July].
HC, 9x11, 196 pages, PC.
$34.95

Sounds pretty good (The Nick Cardy and Carmine Infantino tributes from Vanguard were well worth it) and I just wish C.S. could have seen something like this in his lifetime.


IP: Logged

Continental Op
Member
posted June 02, 2002 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Continental Op
Just a little bump...

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted June 02, 2002 05:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I have the Infantino book and really love it, so I'll likely get the Curt Swan one.

Something I'd like to expand on more over on the "80s Superman" thread, at some future date, is those stories in Action. I didn't buy a lot because at the time I was mourning the loss of the longer stories, BUT I sorta admired Schwartz's moxy. He had to know that the end was in store, but rather than quitting right then or just pumping out the same material--he seems to have decided this was an opportunity to do whatever the hell he thought like doing. He could give stories to friends and it didn't matter. What the hell was DC going to do to him--cancel the book? that was already in the works; fire him? he had a contract, they'd still have to pay him. So Julie chose to do some pretty bizarre stuff and he let Kieth Giffen go to town and tear down the sacred cows.

IP: Logged

Continental Op
Member
posted June 02, 2002 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Continental Op
India--

I think you're on the right track there about Schwartz's "what the hell" attitude towards the end of his tenure as editor, but I don't think he was actively trying to be iconoclastic or go after sacred cows or anything. (But Keith Giffen definitely was, in a non-malicious kind of way). I think he just knew that the higher-ups at DC simply didn't give a damn anymore would be going on with Superman until whatever big-name creator they ended up signing (Byrne, as it turned out)came on board the books, and they were concentrating on developing the new ideas with future editor Andy Helfer, not Schwartz. So Julie simply gave a freer hand to the writers who wanted to pitch single-issue stories, and was more willing to accept scripts from guys who wanted to write a Superman story but hadn't before. What did he have to lose?

I wasn't trying to suggest that everything of that period was flat-out farce or anything...Marv Wolfman was off to work on CRISIS and keep the big-selling TITANS chugging along, but Cary Bates and Elliot S! Maggin were basically writing the same type of thing they had been doing all along for Schwartz- although the soap opera subplots and secondary supporting cast were basically discarded. Paul Kupperberg and Joey Cavalieri were writing solid if unspectacular Bronze Age-type stuff. But ACTION COMICS seemed to be where Schwartz steered the shorter scripts from newer writers that were deliberatley wacky or "retro". SUPERMAN basically seemed to become a place where he and the writers were trying to keep getting Curt Swan a regular paycheck for as long as they could.

But there was some chilling, more modern stuff even then- like Steve Gerber's farewell visit to the Phantom Zone in the last DC COMICS PRESENTS, Alan Moore's nightmare story with Mongul, and Keith Giffen's "Caitiff--The Last Vampire!!"

I bet if you asked Schwartz what he REALLY considered his "last hurrah" on Superman, though, it would actually come right before this period. Actually, for me it seems almost like a dividing line of sorts: the 400th issue of SUPERMAN. You can really tell that THIS is the one Julius Schwartz worked his butt off on, burning up the phone lines, and calling in all the old favors from pals and acquaintances, trading on every last bit of his legendary editorial reputation. THIS for him was the real bon voyage, the last great home run. Everything else was just Schwartz running out the clock. In a "Meanwhile" column around that time, Dick Giordano hyped the issue by telling how Schwartz would gleefully gloat about the latest big name who had agreed to contribute something to the anniversary issue. Almost everyone who was anyone in comics art at the time contributed a few pages of art or at least a pin-up. You had the first Byrne Superman, the only Ditko Superman, tributes from Will Eisner and Ray Bradbury, Steranko's only mainstream comics story since the 1960s...
Now, to be honest, although it's all first-rate work, none of it really JUMPS out at you... but it was the biggest assemblage of sheer comics talent in a superhero book ever at the time. And I bet you THAT was the last Superman work that REALLY got Julie flat-ot excited as hell, so to speak. Maybe the ONLY work... and that's not meant at a knock at Julius Schwartz. Remember, for guys of his generation, who hadn't GROWN UP reading comics, editing Superman was really just a JOB... maybe a fun and rewarding job often, but just a way to earn a living. But assembling this would have been a real challenge and the ultimate proof of how much of a legend he was in the industry. So I think the "last hurrah" came in 1984.


IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted June 02, 2002 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:
On a somewhat related note, I've struggled my way through transcribing Guy H. Lillian III's interview with Bates and Maggin in AWODDCC, which I mentioned way back on July 30 of last year on this thread (page 4)--it's on my "Backdoor to the 70s" topic over on the Other Superman Topics forum...
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/files/Forum89/HTML/001224-2.html

I really coulda used an edit function on that one!


Thanks for presenting that interview.

I'll put their unfair criticisms of Marvel down to youthful exuberance.

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted June 02, 2002 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I think if you read who is saying what in that interview, you'll find that it's Bates who takes the conversation in the direction of Marvel and it's Bates who is poking holes in that system. Whereas, Maggin is trying to make a general statement about comicbook superheroes on the one hand and trying to recognize the strengths of both companies on the other hand. Curiously, Bates ended up writing some for Marvel towards the end of his comicbook career, while I don't know that Maggin ever wrote for Marvel or would want to.

When I read this interview back in 1974 I was probably nodding in agreement with everything said about Marvel. Reading it now as I typed it, I was sort of straining to understand the argument. But I think Bates has a point, and he's trying to say something more general without naming names, but by naming Marvel he's kind of naming names. Likely he saw the same things starting to happen at DC, so he was really talking about a trend at both companies. Really it's a trend not to write stories, but just to write ongoing situations.

However I still agree with a lot of what is said in that interview--especially by Maggin. I take two things from this part of the interview...

1) Superheroes are a kid power fantasy--everything stems from that, and anything that loses that connection is pointless.

2) You have to have a greater frame of reference in writing comics than just comics themselves. When comics are produced from this incestuous world where writers only know about other comics, the stories are weighed down by their own mass.

Since 1974, superhero comics have suffered because they've gotten away from these two dictums. There are superhero comics that forget their connection to kid power fantasies. And there are superhero comics that are weighed down by their own self-reference. Ever increasingly so.

On these boards I have to remind myself periodically of these two premises. Otherwise I forget the kid connection and start talking about comics totally as an adult experience. If I get too caught up in the self-referencing world of comics, I have to remind myself that there's a lot more than just comics in the world and it's good to look outside a window every once in a while.

Marvel did create kid power fantasies, but right around 1974 there were a few too many writers at Marvel, and some at DC, who were forgetting about the kids and getting caught up in this incestuous comicbook world.

That's not to argue that comics in general have to be written for kids. But superheroes ARE directly connected to childhood fantasy--and even superheroes for adults (like Astro City or various Alan Moore creations) have to relate to that part of our childhood experience. We may read these comics as adults, but our way-in is through that part of ourself that was a kid. That part doesn't die, we still have it and we have to use it if we're going to have a healthy experience.

Also in the interview, when things get too critical of Marvel, it's Maggin who pushes to move things onto something else--namely Superman!

IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted June 03, 2002 01:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:
You have to have a greater frame of reference in writing comics than just comics themselves. When comics are produced from this incestuous world where writers only know about other comics, the stories are weighed down by their own mass.

I have a comic book somewhere in my collection (DON'T ask me to find it) where Stan talks to the fans in one of his Bullpen columns about breaking into the comic book business. I've always remembered his advice about breaking into comics writing. He said something to the effect of, first become a good writer.

"Incestuous world" is a great term, India, and just about says it all. You know, when I think of highly intelligent men of the real world who could also write like the dickens, I could mention Gardner Fox, Bill Finger... (I won't try to make a list, because it'd be a long list and I'd probably leave someone out.) How many wonderful and interesting factual tidbits did the great Gardner Fox bring to his stories?! (I think I'm digressing here!)

Marvel had some fantastic writers in their heyday, and a casual dismissal of Marvel writing (even given their Marvel Way method of the artist setting the story out then the writer putting in the words) is completely unfair and unjustified.

Within the Bates/Maggin interview was also quite puzzling criticism of the whole Marvel philosophy, their sense of fun, sincere connection with the fans, the lettercols, etc. That was a wonderful thing that happened, where fans began to know who wrote this and who wrote that, and they could even communicate with their creative heroes. We all owe Marvel for that innovation, for creating a fan/creator community.

I never understood the bizarre DC-Marvel animosity thing. They were both great companies in those days. I once read an anti-DC diatribe by Jim Shooter, back when he was Ed-in-Chief of Marvel (I think), and it was a real turn-off. It was unnecessary. True, he wrote some pretty fun stories when he was a teenager, but when I read this pitiful article, I just thought, "You've lost the plot, mate."

IP: Logged

India Ink
Member
posted June 03, 2002 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
quote:
MAGGIN: Letter columns, ad campaigns, promotional gimmicks, even fan magazines National puts out, they're not as SILLY as at Marvel. They take themselves much more seriously at National for some ridiculous reason that's beyond me.

In comments like the above, Maggin is clearly pointing out what Marvel does well compared with DC. He's saying that DC (National) could afford to have a spirit of silliness. That comics should offer kids fun.

I've always wondered why DC had to be so serious all the time. They could have lightened up more.

Of course, DC did PLOP! and Ambush Bug and Justice League International--but it's kind of amazing that any of those things got published.

But I also appreciated when DC took the time to print a letter from the publisher in their comics explaining to me why it was necessary to up the price. That made me feel that the publisher respected me, which was very important to me as a boy, and is still important now.

IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted June 03, 2002 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Yes, I take the point about Elliot's comments.

quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:
I've always wondered why DC had to be so serious all the time. They could have lightened up more.

National did seem more mature, more "dignified", in terms of the management. You got the feeling National was run by grown-up creative men who wore collars-and-ties to work; whereas, at Marvel, you got the feeling they were all on a bit of a lark, throwing folded-paper darts at each other across the drawing boards, and having a hell of a time.

Marvel opened up that whole personal contact thing between creators and fans, but National valued its fans just as much as Marvel did. Your last paragraph is one indication of this.

IP: Logged

GernotCarl
Member
posted June 04, 2002 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GernotCarl   Click Here to Email GernotCarl
"Great Scott! This looks like a job for Super-"

BUMP!

IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted June 04, 2002 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
I deserve to be called a man!

India,

An old Superboy story I have (and love) involves the arrival of an android teacher which survived the destruction of Krypton, and who puts Superboy through his paces to see if he is worthy of going on with his superhero role. The teacher basically tricks Superboy at the end of the story, convincing him he should hang up his cape, because his control over his super-powers is not what it should be (a conclusion the teacher has come to after Superboy has attempted a series of "tests"). Superboy (very reluctantly) agrees to give up his superhero career because he is a danger to mankind. The teacher immediately announces that Superboy has passed the toughest and final test, to see if the Boy of Steel would give up his own aspirations and desires, for the good of others. (The teacher reveals Superboy had actually passed all the previous tests.)

Cut to the 70s (maybe very late 60s -- I don't have the ish in front of me -- although I can go and find it to do a synopsis). Another Superboy story I really love. I'm pretty sure it's Swanderson, but I can check that by rifling through my closet. This is a clever, belated sequel to the super-teacher from Krypton story, and involves Kal-El on the very brink of manhood. He falls obsessively in love with a gorgeous, intelligent woman who not only seems a perfect match for a super-lover, she also figures out that Kent is Superboy. Far from being upset at this deduction, Superboy is rapt. As I said, I can post a synopsis, but to get to the pain -- an innocent creature (portrayed in this story as a forest-dwelling member of a Sasquatch clan) lashes out at the lovers and kills the girl. Superboy is enraged and brutalises the man-creature with his super-strength. He is about to deliver the killing blow to the skull of the creature, but he slowly lowers his hands and dissolves into sobs, letting the creature go free. The dialogue went something along the lines of, "I...I cannot kill...not even for this!"

It is an incredibly powerful story. (Is it Bates? Could be. Sorry -- I'll check later. Maybe Maggin.)

The point of all this pain is that the girl (Misty, I think her name was) was a "plant" by the original super-teacher from Krypton, who had returned to Earth knowing Superboy was on the verge of manhood, and this last, terrible test was the most manipulative and punishing of them all. Superboy is devastated, but accepts the necessity for this last great deception. The girl never was Superboy's true mate -- she was "made-over," "engineered," to be such a perfect complement to Kal-El in every way, that he fell for her the way he could never fall for any real woman. (The girl was not really killed by the Sasquatch, and, freed from the manipulations of the teacher, she goes back to her former life, with no knowledge of what had occurred.)

And Superboy has become Superman.

This is the best, in my view, of all the Superboy-becomes-Superman stories. (I have a few.)

There is a neat little epilogue to the story where Kent, in the present day, is seated in a plane, and the adult stewardess resembles the girl Misty, and Kent recognises her -- but of course she doesn't know him.

Comments please from anyone else who owns this comic.

I don't think I can overstate the effect this story had on me when I was a kid.

IP: Logged

GernotCarl
Member
posted June 05, 2002 02:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GernotCarl   Click Here to Email GernotCarl
I remember the issue of DC Special those stories were printed in together! I think they were used as a basis on whether Superboy would get his own title again or not.

IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted June 05, 2002 04:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by GernotCarl:
I remember the issue of DC Special those stories were printed in together! I think they were used as a basis on whether Superboy would get his own title again or not.

Thanks, Carl. I rummaged around in my collection and found the two comics I was thinking of. The older Superboy tale, The Super-Teacher From Krypton, features art by John Sikela. (I don't know who the writer is.) The second story, set in 1976, is written by Cary Bates, and, as I thought, drawn by Curt Swan & Murphy Anderson.

IP: Logged

Continental Op
Member
posted June 05, 2002 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Continental Op
I remeber that robot teacher too, but I don't know where I saw it since I don't seem to have a copy anywhere.

Is it just me,or did the Kryptonians program that thing to give some pretty unneccessarily CRUEL lessons?? In fact, as I remember it, didn't Jor-El himself program the robot when he decided to send his son to Earth? He was one BUSY guy in those last few months before the planet exploded!

This brings up another interesting topic... all of Superman's "one-story" girlfriends. He actually had quite a few besides the "classic LLs" of Lois, Lana, and Lori. Sometimes they rated a sequel (Sally Selwyn) or an occasional mention (Luma Lynai,Lyla Lerrol) but I think they were a half dozen or so gals Superman fell wildly in love with, had to part with for some bizarre reason,and never thought of again. And then they were the girls who had a crush on Clark Kent but NOT Superman...

*******

But since this thread is for the SEVENTIES Superman, I'll try not to get off topic. In fact,as soon as I get a little more time, I'm going to post a look at one of my favorite 70s two-parters from an overlooked period. It's pretty weird. You might say it takes Superman to a "zone" where there are no "outer limits". And the enemy has to be seen to be believed.

Are you ready for... the QUAKERER?

IP: Logged

Aldous
Member
posted June 05, 2002 06:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by Continental Op:
In fact, as I remember it, didn't Jor-El himself program the robot when he decided to send his son to Earth? He was one BUSY guy in those last few months before the planet exploded!

Yes, and yes!

quote:
Are you ready for... the QUAKERER?

I'm quaking with anticipation...

IP: Logged



1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 
NEXT PAGE

BACK TO DCMB ARCHIVES  -  ACTIVE FORUM

Entrance ·  Origin ·  K-Metal ·  The Living Legend ·  About the Comics ·  Novels ·  Encyclopaedia ·  The Screen ·  Costumes ·  Read Comics Online ·  Trophy Room ·  Creators ·  ES!M ·  Fans ·  Multimedia ·  Community ·  Supply Depot ·  Gift Shop ·  Guest Book ·  Contact & Credits ·  Links ·  Coming Attractions ·  Free E-mail ·  Forum

Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
The LIVING LEGENDS of SUPERMAN! The original!
Return to SUPERMAN THROUGH THE AGES!
The Complete Supply Depot for all your Superman needs!