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Superman in the 70s - DC Comics Message Boards
Author Topic:   Superman in the 70s
Village Idiot
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posted March 16, 2002 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Village Idiot   Click Here to Email Village Idiot
Just to let you all know, apparently:

Superman Through The Ages, R.I.P. (again).

It hasn't been working all week.

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Aldous
Member
posted March 19, 2002 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Skyscraper...

Superman is gobsmacked, but he flies back down after Demeos who's falling to earth again... Superman saves Demeos from hitting the pavement, but the now the latter appears to lose his composure.

"If you insist on saving Demeos's worthless body... then I will have to destroy you as well!"

Right there in Superman's arms, Demeos rapidly changes into something not entirely human -- a Ninukab, a spirit-like creature who is a remnant of a dead, alien race of sorcerers -- creatures who now inhabit man-made objects like buildings and spaceships throughout the universe.

An aerial battle ensues, Superman taking the worst of it, before the Ninukab tells Superman it is only doing what it has to to survive. The spirit being subsists on human energy, ie. just as humans need air and food, the Ninukab must be surrounded by life. Demeos, in wanting to clear the skyscraper of people and turn the building into a giant machine, is directly threatening the life of the alien spirit. Superman suggests the Ninukab find another building to occupy, but the creature tells the Man of Steel this is not possible.

"I am accustomed to this building! It is my home! That is why I took over Demeos's body... to kill it -- even if it means I have to kill you first!" The creature punctuates this last remark with a final supernatural energy blast that appears to deliver the coup de grace to Superman.

Believing the Man of Steel to be finished, the Ninukab reverts back to the form of Demeos, and the body of the billionaire once again begins falling from the sky to its doom.

But Superman is far from vanquished, and he decides, as a last resort, to destroy the entire skyscraper. He speeds into the building like a human wrecking ball and starts smashing the structure to bits. The onlookers watch in amazement as the Man of Steel reduces it all to a pile of rubble.

The body of Demeos has been falling the whole time it took for the building to be destroyed, and now Superman catches the billionaire moments before he hits the ground.

Superman, Demeos, and the onlookers watch and listen as a final eerie scream comes from out of the wreckage, and the spirit of the Ninukab departs into the sky.

In the epilogue, as Clark continues the interrupted interview with Demeos, the businessman informs the public that he is donating his fortune to Unicef, who made it possible for him to get an education as a boy. He tells the listeners how it all happened too fast, becoming so rich -- and it was not what he wanted. He now intends to live simply, writing books on his philosophy of life.

The Ninukab was a great Maggin villain who, like many great villains, was not really bad, but just trying to do what it had to. It only wanted to survive, as any living creature does.

Superman's actions seem harsh to me. In light of Demeos's giving up of his wealth and career, could he not have left the building and let it be taken over by some other business concern -- a business who would be happy to have a building full of human workers -- plus one itty bitty (and content) Ninukab?

End.

Aldous

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India Ink
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posted March 20, 2002 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Besides contributing to the list of space-legends tied in with Superman (the Starry-Eyed Sirens being another--someone really ought to put together a list of all these), another element that I found striking about this story was the secret and humble room that Demeos kept, the only place he was really able to be himself and generate his ideas.

It's these kinds of elements that get me thinking about the behind-the-scenes plotting sessions in Schwartz's office. Did Julie have a file full of possible elements to put into any story? Did Eliot bring in the barebones idea of such a secret room which provided the springboard?

It's like that proverbial line about New York being a city of eight million stories. I'm wondering as these gents wandered about Manhattan on any given day, going out for lunch or catching the train home, did they look about them and wonder what possible stories each of their fellow citizens carried inside them? Did they clip little bits from the newspaper and post them on their bulletin board for possible use?

-------

I will keep searching the internet until I can find a new Superman Through The Ages link (hopefully).

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Aldous
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posted March 23, 2002 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
India Ink wrote:
I will keep searching the internet until I can find a new Superman Through The Ages link (hopefully).

Cool. Bit odd for such a good site to just disappear, no forwarding address, no nothing. (??)

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India Ink
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posted March 23, 2002 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
It's been down before and up again under different internet addresses. So I'm not panicking yet and hoping it will return again as it has in the past.

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Aldous
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posted March 23, 2002 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
India Ink wrote:
Besides contributing to the list of space-legends tied in with Superman (the Starry-Eyed Sirens being another--someone really ought to put together a list of all these)

Did you just volunteer??

quote:
another element that I found striking about this story was the secret and humble room that Demeos kept, the only place he was really able to be himself and generate his ideas.

A striking element of this story -- I agree.

quote:
It's these kinds of elements that get me thinking about the behind-the-scenes plotting sessions in Schwartz's office. Did Julie have a file full of possible elements to put into any story? Did Eliot bring in the barebones idea of such a secret room which provided the springboard?

It's like that proverbial line about New York being a city of eight million stories. I'm wondering as these gents wandered about Manhattan on any given day, going out for lunch or catching the train home, did they look about them and wonder what possible stories each of their fellow citizens carried inside them? Did they clip little bits from the newspaper and post them on their bulletin board for possible use?


I think you're onto something, India. They must have wondered about the "possible stories" of their fellow citizens. The Skyscraper story is a short tale that really does no more than scratch the surface of who Peter Demeos is -- but it has enough of a "real person" in there to intrigue me. In a very few words and drawings, the creative team made me care who Peter Demeos was.

As GernotCarl was talking about in the '80s Superman' thread -- we have a story that isn't even what I'd call "issue-length".... but in a few pages we get a stab of pathos. Is there a real person or persons, story or stories, behind the persona of Demeos? I kind of get the feeling he has some basis in... reality.

Do you think so?

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India Ink
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posted March 24, 2002 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
There are certain times in a Maggin story that I get the feeling I'm reading about a real person Elliot knew--just changed slightly for comicbook purposes. Demeos being one such case (I often got the same feeling during any of his Robin stories--probably because he and Dick were almost about the same age when Maggin was writing).

I know that Maggin admired Danny Kaye and Kaye's work with Unicef so maybe the connection is somewhere in there.

I've noticed that in Schwartz tales, which he probably plotted with his writers, there are often these personality quirks that arise as a hook for the story.

Whereas Stan Lee used characters to create antagonistic drama (everyone in a Lee story seems to have some grudge against someone else--some guy always wants to get back at his brother-in-law for a perceived slight), Schwartz edited tales seemed to use character to spark the reader's interest.

The Elongated Man stories are perhaps the most realized example of this approach. Ralph notices some odd behaviour on the part of a person or persons, his nose twitches, and he investigates. The resolution of the story is the resolution of this mystery--an approach that is well suited to short stories of 16 pages or less.

Character exists in the Schwartz stories because it makes our nose twitch, we have to investigate--ie. we have to read the story.

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Aldous
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posted March 30, 2002 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
India Ink wrote:
Whereas Stan Lee used characters to create antagonistic drama (everyone in a Lee story seems to have some grudge against someone else--some guy always wants to get back at his brother-in-law for a perceived slight), Schwartz edited tales seemed to use character to spark the reader's interest.

I love a lot of early Stan Lee, but the stuff I love usually sees him paired with another powerhouse of the comics industry (like Ditko or Kirby). Without the considerable input of another top creator, Stan Lee's "antagonistic drama" can be two-dimensional.

quote:
The Elongated Man stories are perhaps the most realized example of this approach. Ralph notices some odd behaviour on the part of a person or persons, his nose twitches, and he investigates. The resolution of the story is the resolution of this mystery ....

India, have you ever read Jack Cole's Plastic Man? Actually, is there anyone who has read Cole's Plastic Man at any length? I'd be VERY interested to hear what you have to say.....

quote:
There are certain times in a Maggin story that I get the feeling I'm reading about a real person Elliot knew--just changed slightly for comicbook purposes.

Well, yes -- I think I share this feeling.

You know, one day we have to discuss Lex in depth. There's just something about the human Luthor.....

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India Ink
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posted March 30, 2002 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Another way of describing the difference between a lot of Stan Lee stories compared with Julie Schwartz edited stories goes like this...With Stan the question is "What next?" With Schwartz it's "Why did this happen?" The Lee stories continually tease the reader into anticipating what will follow. Whereas Julie's writers start the story in media res, and then give the answer to why all this is happening in the body of the story.

Of course as Stan Lee progressed (or got lazier), and gave the artists more freedom to create, the stories became more complex. I wonder if Stan was happy or mad when Kirby would inject a scene into the plot they had worked out without Stan's knowledge? Did he see this as annoying--given he had to figure out how to incorporate the scene into the story--or did he get excited by the challenge? Of course if he really hated the scene he could always just demand that it be redone.

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Aldous
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posted March 30, 2002 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Yes. Skyscraper is a good example, then, of the difference.

quote:
I wonder if Stan was happy or mad

From what I've learned of Stan in the course of a comics-reading lifetime, he would be happy if Stan Lee was given credit for it, or unhappy if Jack Kirby was given credit for it.

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India Ink
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posted March 30, 2002 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Most of my conjecture about Stan comes in retrospect since I didn't read much of what he created when it first came out (I'm a lifelong DC fan). My first intense introduction to the writings of Stan Lee came through the books he wrote back in the seventies (Origins of Marvel Comics, Son of Origins, Bring on the Bad Guys) and since I had no reason to doubt his authority, I read the stories printed therein from his skewed perspective. Two things I admired at the time were use of minority characters and subplotting (or double plotting, in the sense that the story flips from one plotline to the other at a regular pace and often just when the one plot is on the verge of an important moment switching to the other plot, creating suspense).

It's only later (and rather recently I've become more interested in sixties and seventies Marvel--because, well, I've become more interested in all comics history from that time period) I've realized that given the Marvel style (with the artist really writing the story before the credited writer puts in the dialogue and captions) Lee might not have actually created those elements I most admire.

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Aldous
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posted March 30, 2002 11:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
He may have had a hand in those elements you most admire, but he certainly can't take sole credit for them.

In my edition of "Origins," the 1974 publication (I think it has been revised and updated since -- not sure), Stan Lee even says that his style of writing was to give Jack Kirby an outline, then Kirby would draw the entire comic with all the necessary action and drama, then Lee would complete the comic by filling in the dialogue and captions. That still doesn't tell us just how detailed that original outline was. Was it the barest bones of a story? Did Jack Kirby, in fact, plot the Fantastic Four?

Despite all this, there is no doubt Stan was a very talented creator, and the comics world owes him a lot. His personal style alone has had an enormous impact.

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Aldous
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posted April 06, 2002 02:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Dig that groovy cover....

Superman flying over a crowded beach, with his cape snagged on the teeth of a massive shark which has sprung from the sea....

Nice one, Mike Grell.

"Jaws of the Killer Shark!"

I might review this action-adventure tomorrow, if I feel up to it.

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FF TLSOK
Member
posted April 07, 2002 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FF TLSOK
BUMP

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"God Bless America."

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Aldous
Member
posted April 08, 2002 05:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Thanks for the bump, FF.

You may be top dog in the air, Superman -- but in the water, nothing can stand up to the Shark -- not even you!

Captain Strong, a mate of Superman, is watching a tiger shark thrash about in captivity in the Metro Aquarium. With him are two kids, Jayson and Jill, who are awed by the sea creature.

The boy, Jayson, seems especially mesmerised by the shark. Suddenly, before Captain Strong and the other onlookers, Jayson is reduced to what appears to be a "pool of jelly". Simultaneously, the shark has disappeared -- it has shot skyward in a water stream, puncturing the ceiling of the aquarium. It has, in effect, "busted out."

As Jill sobs for her brother and the Captain feels a twinge of fear, we join Lois and Clark on the Metro-Island Ferry. Lois notices a tall waterspout not far from the boat, churning up the otherwise calm waters. Clark deems the waterspout serious enough to pull a stunt to get away from Lois so he can change to Superman to investigate. Clark does the "man overboard" bit, and as Lois is yelling for help, Clark has swum a mile underwater to emerge into the open air as the Man of Steel.

Back on the ferry, the passengers are in a panic because of a terrifying visitor.

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conkom1
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posted April 08, 2002 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for conkom1   Click Here to Email conkom1
quote:
Originally posted by Aldous:
Dig that groovy cover....

Superman flying over a crowded beach, with his cape snagged on the teeth of a massive shark which has sprung from the sea....

Nice one, Mike Grell.

"Jaws of the Killer Shark!"

I might review this action-adventure tomorrow, if I feel up to it.


Wasn't it Ernie Chua?

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conkom

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Aldous
Member
posted April 08, 2002 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by conkom1:
Wasn't it Ernie Chua?

Mike Grell, conkom.

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conkom1
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posted April 08, 2002 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for conkom1   Click Here to Email conkom1
quote:
Originally posted by Aldous:
Mike Grell, conkom.


OK I'll take your word for it!

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conkom

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Aldous
Member
posted April 08, 2002 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by conkom1:
OK I'll take your word for it!

Of course, if you can prove otherwise, I'll shout you a VB.

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bluedevil2002
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posted April 08, 2002 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluedevil2002   Click Here to Email bluedevil2002
quote:
Originally posted by Aldous:
Did Jack Kirby, in fact, plot the Fantastic Four?

Kinda. As I've been told, the Galactus arc from FF #48-50 was mostly Kirby's plot. I think Stan Lee just described Galactus and said, he fights the FF. In fact, Silver Surfer was added by Kirby.

I've also noticed that in the early Spider-Man, from about issue 25 right up to his exit in 38, Ditko did the plots, and was credited.

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conkom1
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posted April 08, 2002 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for conkom1   Click Here to Email conkom1
I can't prove it as I do not have the issue. It's only from memory. I do not thing Grell did too many Superman covers.

Most covers in the seventies were done by

Neal Adams
Nick Cardy
Jose Garcia-Lopez
Ross Andru
Ernie Chua
Rich Buckler

Perhaps Grell did a handful, but the description of that cover could have been any of the latter artists listed.

Let's have the VB anyway!

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conkom

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India Ink
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posted April 09, 2002 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
S'funny as soon as I read Aldous' post about that Mike Grell cover the image appeared before my mind's eye as if I had just seen it an hour before. Without even checking I know for a fact that it was Grell, I even think I know what the banner was like--it was an Action issue, right?--and in those days there was a banner above the logo, with a Shuster image of Superman in one corner (adapted from a painted Shuster image of Superman that had appeared as the cover of a recent Limited Collector's Edition.

Grell did a few covers for DC--and then that was it (other than his work on projects he was attached to like Legion and Warlord). Like his very short term as a Batman artist.

There's no confusing Grell with anyone else. His approach to perspective and body language was unique (even if influenced by a host of other artists).

Same thing with most of the other cover artists mentioned, with the exception of Rich Buckler (and to a degree Ross Andru), it was impossible to mistake their covers for anyone else.

For instance Nick Cardy's covers often didn't foreground the main characters (whereas Grell with his extreme foreshortening felt compelled to put the main character in the foreground). Garcia Lopez often showed the figure from a unique angle that showed his expertise in drawing the human form (worm's eye, bird's eye, bee's eye). The Adams compositions had invisible (and sometimes visible) lines of force that drew the eye to a single point on the cover. Chua's covers looked like they had first been worked out as thumbnail sketches on a damp napkin with a felt tip pen.

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Aldous
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posted April 10, 2002 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Jaws of the Killer Shark
Story: Cary Bates
Art: Curt Swan + Tex Blaisdell


A humanoid shark creature stands on the boat as passengers make themselves scarce -- all except Lois. She has sneaked up behind the shark-man and is about to photograph him. Suddenly the shark-man turns his head to look at Lois, and under his gaze she faints from sheer terror. The shark-man reaches a hand towards Lois, but Superman grabs the creature's wrist.

The shark-man, to Superman's surprise, breaks the wrist-hold and sweeps the Man of Steel off the boat and into the water.

Superman telepathically receives information from the creature, who is happy for Superman to know that he is The Shark, an old nemesis of Green Lantern. The Shark reveals he has probed the mind of Lois Lane to learn about the Man of Steel, and as they fight, The Shark also notes that Superman does not succumb to the fear which the villain can mentally instil in other human beings.

Superman socks the creature into the sky. The Shark mentally creates a waterspout which he then heads for, with Superman surmising that, even though The Shark is a super-evolved mutant, he's still part-fish, and must return to water to breathe. The Man of Steel wallops The Shark by hitting into the waterspout, but the water stream "refracts" the energy of the blow, leaving The Shark unharmed, but sending a "destructive liquid comet" toward the city. Superman is forced to go after the "comet."

End of Round One for now. Later, Superman and Captain Strong are at S.T.A.R. trying to figure out what happened to the boy, Jayson. One of the scientists tells them that what had been the boy is now a mass of protoplasm, the basic form of life as it existed on Earth billions of years ago.

"But," asks Strong, "why did that blasted shark-face do this to a defenseless kid?"

Superman has a theory.

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Aldous
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posted April 11, 2002 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Shark

"To recover his human form, Captain! My theory is The Shark extracted the human evolving factor from Jayson -- enabling him to advance himself millions of years into super-shark form -- causing poor Jayson to devolve into basic protoplasm!"

For the next few hours, Superman spends his time weaving around the skies of Metropolis, acting as bait so as to lure The Shark into the open. The Shark springs a surprise attack, which Superman has anticipated, and the Man of Steel eludes the finned fiend (this Shark nickname courtesy of your Friendly Neighbourhood Aldous. ) Superman grabs The Shark, but The Shark summons up another water stream which enables him to break free of Superman's grasp.

Superman sends a blast of heat vision at The Shark inside the water stream, hoping to turn the water to steam, but the refractive properties of the stream results in the heat blast being redirected toward the city.

In one of those ridiculously over the top superduperman moments, Superman speeds to an observatory outside the city, gets a giant refracting mirror from the telescope, speeds back to get in the path of the heat vision blast, and reflects the heat-beams into the sky (away from the city).

This total inconsistency with Superman's abilities always annoys me -- particularly in Bates' stories. Superman can travel around looking for something to reflect heat vision with, while the heat beams are heading for the nearby city buildings at the speed of light (I mean, how long would they take to get there??)... Yet he cannot see approaching water spouts in time to stop them; nor move fast enough to just super speed in and knock The Shark out -- or whisk him away into space, or something. In some scenes of the story he can see and move many, many times the speed of light, and in others he is slower than The Shark???

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Aldous
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posted April 12, 2002 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
India,

From memory, that's the only Superman comic book I have with a Mike Grell cover.

Yes, it is an Action... #456 to be exact.

You'll find this kind of strange, but I don't have the Action Comics logo on this cover, nor do I have the Shuster image in the corner. I don't have a banner either. My comic book is an Australian edition -- it is a facsimile of your copy, for the most part.

In place of the "Action" logo, I have Giant Superman Album. In place of where I imagine the DC logo should be, I have Planet Comics. The Mike Grell drawing is intact. All that is different are the logos, title, etc.

I imagine Conkom has "Superman Albums" in his collection. They're just DC comic books repackaged under the name of the Australian publisher.

So, when talking of the finer points of comic cover logos, sometimes I'm at a loss!

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