| Author | Topic: 80's Superman |
| Aldous Member |
 posted March 04,
2002 04:10 AM 
quote: An excellent review.
quote: Yes -- a really good scene. And a bit on the disturbing side.
quote: You must've been getting tired by the end of that review. Az-Rel is the male of the pair. Nadira is the female. She didn't hunger for death. She was repulsed by the kryptonite, but Jer-Em pulled her into it. Az-Rel the male ran away, even though he knew he should try to save her. He was the one with the pyrotic power. The female, dying from the kryptonite, attacks both Az-Rel and Superman with her power to disrupt the central nervous system. This attack on the male triggers his own pyrotic power, and he burns himself to death.
quote: I totally agree. And now... Green Lantern As to my favourite scene. Well, a slice from a scene, really... Jax-Ur the Kryptonian has Hal Jordan-Green Lantern at his mercy, holding him into the rocky ground with his super-strength. "I could snap every bone in your body, Earthman -- without exertion, and without remorse. You know it -- you can feel it -- yet you show no fear." IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 05,
2002 05:50 PM
But you see where that story is great and where the Billy Cramer scenario fails. Superboy is incapable of saving his friend in the first story, but in the Cramer story he is capable. It's just that there are all those thousands of people out there--people Clark doesn't even know--who need his aid, so he supposedly has to sacrifice the life of one individual (albeit a friend and a hero) for the sake of the many. The ol' Star Trek conundrum. In reality this is a probable scenario. But Superman shouldn't be totally set in reality or else we'll start applying certain logic to the whole fantasy and soon none of it will make sense. In our fantasy, Superman sits down to table with people all the time and enjoys their friendship, when in fact there are always thousands of people around the world in danger. In reality, Superman would never ever rest, would never have time for friendships. Not that there aren't the occasional stories that present this situation. But in most cases, Superman is entirely unable to save the friend (in your example the friend has incurable brain fever), or Superman is brought to the brink of almost not saving the friend but manages to pull it off just in time, or Superman loses the friend but manages a miracle anyhow. Superman's saving Lois in the first movie is a perfect example of this last situation. In the Cramer situation, Superboy just seems to accept the fact that there is nothing he can do for Billy, he has to save the islanders first and if that means letting Billy die then so be it. If Rozakis had at least shown Superboy trying to come up with some means of doing both, but ultimately failing, then Superboy would seem more the hero he is. Of course the obvious answer to the Cramer problem is hidden in the Superboy story that you have reviewed Aldous (I wonder if it was reprinted in Four-Star Spectacular...). Superboy just had to send one of his robots to save Billy! Now Rozakis could have complicated the story by having the robot go on the fritz and thus Billy dies--in such a plot development Superboy would come off as still respectable even though he ultimately failed to save his friend. For me, while I might have some reservations about Rozakis as a writer, he redeemed himself with 'Mazing Man, one of my most favourite series from the last twenty years. IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 05,
2002 05:58 PM
Oops! Um, you know Aldous I was replying to your previous post about the Superboy story, in my last post. I hit reply, forgetting that there is now a third page on this thread. Yes I goofed up on the names. I knew Az-Rel was the guy, and Nadira the girl. I was even thinking to myself--now don't go mixing up the names... But I did anyway! If I re-read my post just one more time, maybe I would have caught the error. By the way, the Phantom Zoners use the power battery as their direct energy source for the huge outer space projector. I think this shouldn't be possible. If Schwartz had been editing the book, he likely would have had Gerber rewrite this part (using GL's ring to access the power battery, perhaps). But Dick Giordano was the editor and probably wasn't up on his Green Lantern lore. IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 06,
2002 02:02 AM
quote: Yes, I see what you mean.
quote: You are absolutely right. It's something I've thought about often through the years, and yes -- a few stories have explored the theme. Superman is, after all, a man, not a machine... and he's an emotional man. He is not a creature of cold logic. Even Spock, who would dearly love to think of himself as a creature of cold & pure logic, is far from it. Kirk would lay down his life for the life of Spock, and Kirk would allow many others to die to save the life of one (Spock). The love you have for your friend is the love that can move mountains, but it is also the love that can defy reason. If your wife is in mortal danger, but across the street are a dozen other people about to die, whom you can save, you will run to your wife! Every time! That is human, and that is right. I don't believe, necessarily, in a "logic" above human emotion and love. Rozakis had it all wrong. (Maybe you've already said this in a roundabout way.) If a hundred people were about to be killed in Outer Mongolia, and Lois Lane was falling from a cliff, and Superman has a second to decide who to save, he will fly to Lois every time. He would do what almost any man would do. Bob Rozakis wrote several stories that I'm aware of that showed complete ignorance of Clark Kent the Man. If Superman were real (and I wish he were), I would much rather he be a
real, breathing, loving man, than a dispassionate creature of logic.
IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 06,
2002 02:11 AM
quote: Yes. Good point. I did think it a little odd when I re-read the saga. You know the creators better than I do -- but shouldn't an old hand
like Dick have thought this aspect of the story a little "off"? IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 06,
2002 07:24 PM
The way I see it, as an inker and sometimes a penciller on Green Lantern, Dick didn't need to think about the reasoning behind all the Lantern lore. Now Denny and Julie had debates between them about all this technical stuff. Things like whether it was necessary for GL to say the oath for the ring to be powered up--as I recall Julie believed it was necessary, Denny didn't. While Giordano worked as an editor on quite a few DC heroes, and was (as I recall) the editor on the Batman books around this time, he hadn't had any real editorial experience up to this point with either GL or Superman. So why was he the editor on this series? Well, I think Giordano had established a good rep with creators in general, including those who might be "outsiders" at DC like Gerber. And Gene Colan was already doing Batman for Giordano. Back to the Secret Years for a moment, there's one thing that I thought was kinda nifty in that series. Rozakis shows Clark travelling back in time to Smallville, back to the days when Ma and Pa are still alive. In these scenes he appears as an apparition, a phantom, watching his younger self with his parents--reliving his happier days. Remembering our Weisinger science, it's impossible for a person to coexist with himself at the same time, thus Superman becomes a Phantom when he time-travels through his own lifetime. I thought the way Bob used this was nice, since it's really a metaphor for living in the past, not getting on with life. Although it does add to the overall downbeat (and morbid) feeling of that series. IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 07,
2002 12:02 AM
Of course Hal Jordan did not have to speak the oath for the ring to recharge. That goes all the way back to the beginning, doesn't it? In GL #10 ('62) we even have a story (on which Julie was editor, I assume) called "The Origin of GL's Oath," where Hal tells Pieface, "I didn't always take the oath. In the beginning ... I simply charged my ring without any oath at all! But then..." In the Neal Adams-Denny O'Neil GL-GA stories (forgive me if I don't go hunting for the issue in question), wasn't Hal having doubts about his oath at some stage, due to dissatisfaction with the management on Oa -- and he was considering dropping the oath altogether? The oath is as necessary to the ring charging as "Up, up, and away!" is to Superman taking flight. IP: Logged |
| BruceWayneMan Member |
posted March 07,
2002 12:10 PM
Perhaps the greatest and defintive Superman story of the 1980s (if not all time) comes from DC Comics Presents 50 (1982). I've read the fantastic Alan Moore stories and the already cited Action 507/508 storyline where the death of Jonathan Kent is erased from history for 48 hours, but this story might top even those. This issue starts with Superman diverting the path of a planetoid from
its collision course with an inhabited planet. He also has to hurry to
make an important appearance as Clark Kent which leads him to think
"Sometimes I wish I could really be both Superman and Clark, living each
of my lives without having the other to worry about". Back in Metropolis,
Clark Kent is covering the annual Superman Day festival when he's asked by
a collegue where Superman is. "I thought you two were pals!". "Not
really..." responds Kent who thinks "funny... he's the third person who's
come on to me like that! Where do they get the idea I'm some sort of
expert on Superman?". Clark becomes more critical of Superman when he
writes an article on his non-appearance yesterday explaining that Superman
should keep in touch with the people he spends so much time protecting.
While arguing this point with Perry White, he's interupted when the
teletype reports that the Atomic Skull has broken into Star Labs. Instead
of running to cover the story, he inexplicably runs to the store room and
pulls open his shirt. "Whatever made me do a dumb thing like that?" he
wonders as, across town, Superman is facing the Atomic Skull. He's unable
to stop him though as he has to save Lois who is attempting to cover the
story. Clark is baffled when Lana Lang questions what's gotten into Superman recently. "And to think when we were kids, I used to believe that you were Superboy!" "You thought I...was him?" "I was always trying to prove it remember...?" "That's funny -- How could I forget a thing like that? You really thought that I --?". Clark then is troubled by the fact that he has no memory of composing any of the Superman stories which appeared under his name in the Daily Planet. He can't even recall where he was when these stories were taking place. He experiences strange dreams of knocking a planetoid out of its collision course and flying through space. He wakes up and puts on his glasses, which for some reason, doesn't affect his vision in the least. Her stares into the mirror and sees Superman staring back at him. He gets Jimmy to call Superman that day and Superman, who is doubting
whether his 24 hour a day watch over Earth is enough, tells Kent that he's
pressed for time and this had better be important. Kent tells him that in
deflecting the path of the planetoid at the start of the story, Superman
knocked it into the path of that inhabited planet's moon which will have
the same disasterous results. Superman tells him that he would never make
a mistake like that but Kent pleads with him to run the figures through
his mind and see. Superman sees that Kent's telling the truth.
Meanwhile Jimmy runs into the room and tells Superman that the Atomic Skull has taken over a Star Nuclear reseacrh facility in California and is threatening to cause a meltdown which'll kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. Superman tells Jimmy that he can't save them. He has to go into space and save the billions on that other planet. Kent announces that "I'll stop the Skull!" After both emergencies have been taken care of Clark has Superman fly
them to Smallville. He shows him the Kent house, Superboy's underground
tunnels, Superboy's lab, none of which rings a bell with Superman. "It's
not that I don't believe you--all the evidence indicates that what you're
telling me is true-- but for the life of me, I can't remember anything".
"I recall your parents, Clark...vaguely--they seemed like very kind
people! But the idea that they were my parents, too...I'm sorry, it just
doesn't register.". Finally, the two visit the gravesites of Martha and
Jonathan Kent. IP: Logged |
| Village
Idiot Member |
posted March 09,
2002 10:27 PM 
Wow, I actually have that DC Comics Presents. I think this is the first time a comic has come up on one of these classic comic threads that I actually own. The poster in the middle is pretty neat. So I've been building my collection lately, and I stumbled into something I didn't realize: there seems to be a series of post Crisis, but pre-Byrne issues. Crisis ended somewhere around Superman #115, but Superman kept on going before changing into Adventures of Superman at issue #424. I guess Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened..." is in there at the end, but so were other books like "The Ghost From Superman's Future." I wonder what effect it had on Maggin to know he was essentially writing the last gasps. Something about #411, with the farewell to Julius Schwarz, strikes me as depressing. IP: Logged |
| KGS Member |
posted March 10,
2002 05:25 AM
quote: I have that comic. IP: Logged |
| The
Progenitor Member |
posted March 10,
2002 04:42 PM
why dont you think the Zoners could use the power battery, they shouldnt be able to, is that what you mean. GL was running out of time on his ring, they snached the battery away before he could recharge. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 10,
2002 05:08 PM
Progenitor: It just seems strange. I haven't done an exhaustive study of Green Lantern lore, but I just find it hard to understand how the PZ villains used the battery. GL's power had run out in his ring, which is how they were able to vanquish him, but they were able to use the battery? Hm, if they could use the battery, without benefit of ring or oath, after the 24 hour period, doesn't that mean that anyone (including Hal) could have done the same thing? So why does Hal bother with the ring--he could just strap the battery to his back and constantly power himself up, 24 hour period or not. I'm not saying that the PZers couldn't have used the battery as they did--I don't know enough to make that claim--I'm just saying if you allow that possibility it opens up a whole can of worms for other GL stories. VI: Yes there was quite a gap between the Crisis and the Byrne reboot. And it did make the stories kind of depressing--a kind of lame duck Superman, like the final days of the Clinton administration. Probably why my collection got so spotty around then (added to the personal traumas in my life at that time). It was hard to figure out if we were reading about a new post-Crisis Superman or the same old pre-Crisis Superman, since these stories seem to have been set after the Crisis (and after the death of Supergirl). IP: Logged |
| Village
Idiot Member |
posted March 11,
2002 06:05 PM
"Lame Duck Superman." That's spot on. So I finally completed collecting my 1982-83 "Superman Split Into Two By Satanus And His Wife" story arc. I've got the whole shebang. But I also picked up Adventures of Superman #425, 427, and 428, and I have to hand it to Marv Wolfman: that guy REALLY knows how to roll with the punches. Marv Wolfman versus Marv Wolfman. The Action Comics he wrote in the early eighties were pretty good. As far as I could tell, the tone in Action seemed to be a little less light-hearted (read: goofy) than the Maggin work on Superman. This is not to say that it didn't follow the storytelling conventions of DC at the time: very straightforward storytelling and heavily expository dialog. However, Wolfman's Action brings the love rectangle (i.e., Lana likes Clark, Clark likes Lois, Lois likes Superman, Superman likes his space) into things more than I've detected in Superman. Superman and Lois are actually stuggling with each other, in an adult, but albeit emotionally improbable way. I like these comics, and they are some of my favorites. Meanwhile, Wolfman also wrote a different Superman, the Marvel-ized Byrne Superman, and if he didn't have his name on the book, I'd never have known it was Wolfman. The emotional verisimilitude was definitely cranked higher in these early Adventures of Superman stories than they were in his previous run and Crisis. #425 was great stuff, with an unhinged Prof. Hamilton, and #427 was fantastic, with a proactively arms-controlling Superman questioning his role in the world. Keeping in mind who was writing, I remarked with surprise when in #427, Superman talks to himself and he calls himself "Clark." Definitely a different Superman, and Wolfman was totally on board with it. I'd argue that Wolfman wrote Byrne's Superman even better than Byrne did. IP: Logged |
| Village
Idiot Member |
posted March 11,
2002 11:16 PM
And while I have your attention (uh, yeah), allow me to go on a bit about the an aspect of the "Lame Duck Superman" era that I find interesting. What REALLY Happened To The Man of Tomorrow. One of Maggins last issues was "The Ghost from Superman's Future" (reprinted at Superman Thru the Ages), a story that deals with the oldest incarnation of the pre-crisis Superman, and suggests how everything wound up. Unlike Moore's story, this was NOT and imaginary tale, but in some respects, it caps the series in a similar manner. IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 12,
2002 04:21 AM
quote: I don't have the book you're talking about, but anyway -- This is an intriguing thing. I do think Superman would refer to himself as "Clark," and not as "Superman," if he talked to himself (which is how they show what someone is thinking in comic books). IP: Logged |
| Village
Idiot Member |
posted March 12,
2002 11:53 AM
Aldous, I think that post-crisis, Superman definitely would be expected to refer to himself as Clark, since Byrne drove home the fact that Superman essentially was Clark. However pre-crisis, Clark Kent seemed to be more his secret identity. If Superman were to refer to himself pre-crisis(while being Superman), I would be more inclined to expect him to call himself "Superman." I brought this point up to illustrate the change in approach to writing the character that one creator, Wolfman, was able to adopt rather successfully (and for me, a little suprisingly). I suppose the suggestion could be made that since Wolfman's Action Comics tended to be a little more sophisticated anyway, perhaps he was chomping at the bit to write in the post-crisis manner. Perhaps the Byrne Superman was his version more fully realized. This is heavy supposition, mind you. Wolfman does have a website, maybe I'll ask him. I also wonder what post-crisis written by Maggin may have been like. IP: Logged |
| The
Progenitor Member |
posted March 12,
2002 02:20 PM
ok , i cannot claim to know a lot about GL, but its my understanding that the power battery is (dont quote me) s link to the Great Power Battery on Oa, the ring is a link to the power battery. The ring is the only means to harness the power within the battery, GL has the will to use the ring, but the power battery is still overflowing with POWER and the Zoners hooked up a BATTERY to the PZ projector. You couldnt take the battery and strap it to a living being because they cant harness it, the ring harnesses the power. So apparently using kryptonian tech, the Zoners wwer able to hook it up to the PZ projector, i guess it was compatable. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 12,
2002 04:18 PM
Hey Aldous, when can I expect to read the rest of your review of "The Skyscraper..." story, over on the 70s thread??? (see the links in my sig) IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 12,
2002 04:19 PM
(...my sig???) ------------------ for Book of Oa-- for DC golden age sites-- for Superman-- for Superboy for Superman in the 70s: for Wonder Woman: IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 13,
2002 01:20 PM
quote: You know, that's a darned good question. The answer is: very soon. I
have been so busy this week... Don't worry, I won't leave anything
half-finished. IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 15,
2002 11:09 PM
quote: We know Hal can't use the power battery as his working power source or there would be no need for him to have the ring to draw off 24 hours of energy. So I ask, if a bunch of exiled Kryptonians can figure out a way to harness the power directly from the battery, why can't the Green Lanterns (who are experts in using the green energy) figure out how to do it? -- or the Guardians (who created the power batteries in the first place)? As with the yellow impurity, it might be assumed that the Guardians imposed a 24-hour power limit as a further way to prevent GL omnipotence... It's not reasonable that the Kryptonians could cobble together something from spare parts that could circumvent this design. IP: Logged |
| India
Ink Member |
posted March 15,
2002 11:32 PM
I'm willing to cut the PZers, and Dick Giordano, a break on this issue. Since they were Kryptonians--some of them leading exiled scientists--and since they had lots of time to sit around and think (how much material existence can one enjoy in the Phantom Zone? sex? food? drink?), they could have figured out a backdoor to the battery's energy in their spare time. And it's not improbable that the Guardians may have imposed some limits on the battery on purpose to prevent GLs from gaining too much power. IP: Logged |
| Aldous Member |
posted March 15,
2002 11:50 PM
quote: Not much, India -- but they might be at your house (or anyone's house) tonight, unseen, watching your enjoyment of all three. Talk about Super-Voyeurism! IP: Logged |
| The
Progenitor Member |
posted March 16,
2002 06:35 AM
and of course they were hooking it up to kryptonian equipment which in itself would be rare and unique. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| BruceWayneMan Member |
posted March 22,
2002 01:28 PM
Quite possibly the funniest comic I've ever read is the second story in Action 570 (written by Craig Boldman, August 85) - "The Superman who Came to Dinner" as the reason for Superman's bizarre behaviour in this story isn't readily apparent. Now during the 80s, Superman's favourite meal was boeuf bourguignon. The story begins as a man whose life Superman has just saved asks Superman to dinner as a token of his gratitude. His wife, he says, "makes the world's best boeuf bourguignon". Superman accepts to the delight of the man's wife who calls her neighbour to tell her that she'll never guess who's at her home. Suddenly, she's sucked into the living room by Superman. "I'm so sorry Helen. I was just demonstrating to Martin how I used my section breath to air-lift him ahead of the explosion's shockwaves! But it's just as well -- we don't really want a lot of neighbors coming around to spoil our nice, pleasant dinner, do we?" As dinner is served, Superman declares that there's "nothing like
saving lives to work up an appetite!" as he proceeds to grab all the food
at the table at super-speed. A mere second later as Helen and Martin wonder where their serving dish has gone... Superman: Urp! Oh? I thought that boeuf bourguignon was awfully crunchy! Good thing you weren't reaching for seconds just then, eh? Heh Heh! As the terrified couple hide in their darkened basement wondering what to do about Superman, Superman appears behind them with his arms around their shoulders and a grin om his face. "Did I hear someone mention my name?" The next panel shows him sipping tea at sun-up telling the couple about
the first time he encountered Luthor. The next panel shows him in the same
position but this time it's pitch black outside: When Helen and Martin tell him that they have no guest room Superman tells them "Tut Tut!" and sleeps in mid-air. Cut to - the couple trying to sleep as a massive RRRUMBLE RUMMBLE RUMMBLE knocks everything in the room off the wall and tables -- Helen: He snores! Martin decides to put a stop to this and goes downstairs. She goes downstairs to see an enraged looking Superman holding her
husband by the throat with his other fist pulled back ready to
strike. The snoring continues into the rest of the night. The next morning
Martin's watching television as a breaking story appears on the set as a
man has a gun pointed to the head of a hostage. Martin points this out to
Superman who's sitting next to him and is spinning a bowling ball on his
finger to keep himself amused: I can't describe Howard Bender's artwork in this story but it constantly shows Superman with an oblivious, cheery grin on his face. IP: Logged |
